Talabani, the Kurds, and the Jews
I was reading a thread at LGF about Talabani's selection as interim President of Iraq, when I saw this remark by a commenter named sandspur:
Just saw a little clip of Talabani on FNC. Sorry I can't quote him verbatim, but he said that Jews, Arabs, all will be treated equally.
As extraordinary as Talabani's election was, this comment seemed even more extraordinary. Why mention Jews? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a link for the quote. But in researching it, I came across some other information that I found fascinating.
There are almost no Jews left in Iraq, although it once teemed with them, and the Jewish presence there was ancient. At the time of WWI, one-third of the population of Baghdad is estimated to have been Jewish. But anti-Semitism in Iraq increased during the early 1940s, influenced by Nazi-inspired leaders who staged a coup (and I don't mean "Nazi-inspired" as a metaphor; I mean it literally). Violence against Jews intensified after the state of Israel was established, and most of the Jews of Iraq left the country.
Well, it turns out that this mention of Jews by the Kurdish Talabani was no fluke. Today, while researching this, I came across an extraordinary article written in 2001 by Michael Rubin, entitled "The Other Iraq." Read the whole thing, as Glenn Reynolds would say.
According to Rubin's article, written before the Iraq war that deposed Saddam, many Kurds were already expressing approval of Israel and studying the country as a model for their own autonomy and liberation. Victims of persecution and genocide themselves, they could identify. What's more, they despised the Palestinians for their support of Saddam. The older generation of Kurds remembered the absent Iraqi Kurdish Jews fondly, and even the younger generation were able to listen to Israeli radio, watch Israeli TV, and access Israeli websites, unlike the inhabitants of the rest of Iraq.
So Talabani's statement doesn't come out of the blue, although it was a total surprise to me. I was ignorant of this long history of relative goodwill in the Kurdish part of Iraq towards Israel and the Jews.
The plot thickens, though, because this long history gets even longer--and more astounding--when genetics are factored in. It turns out, as this article relates, that a team of scientists (Israeli, German, and Indian--that's quite a story in itself!) discovered in 2001 that the Kurds may be the closest genetic relatives to Jews in the entire world.
Once again, read the whole thing.
posted by neo-neocon @ 12:11 PM
22 comments
22 Comments:
What the article does not mention is that Abraham and Sarah came from Iraq and migrated south to Israel, so it is not so odd that Jews share genes with Kurds, especially when you recall that both Isaac's and Jacob's wives came from there. And believe me, I never thought I would be writing those words in response to a scientific article. I wonder what other surprises lie in genetic wait?
As far as Jewish Iraqis are concerned (and their community was there for over a thousand years before the Muslims appeared), whenever you talk to one of those "anti-Zionist but not anti-Semitic" nazis, ask them if they feel just as strongly about returning the property of the Jews of Baghdad (or Iraq or the Arab world or Europe) as they do about the rights of the Palestinians. Watch the baffled expression.
The Michael Rubin piece was a fascinating and worthwhile read- thanks for linking it. There is so much to learn.
Its an old article and there were others as I recall. But I wouldn't hold your breath, the Kurds are not a monolith and the idea that its common for Kurds on the street to have an affinity or understanding of Kurdish/Iraqi Jews is likely wishful thinking.
I think Israel has been written about and probably somewhat listened to on radio apparently...However, I'd bet Talabani's statement was more of a political move to the Americans and Israelis and anti-Arab who they are obviously not fond of..., especially since Saddam tried to Germanize their oil cities the way he did in Czechoslavakia... not that they like the Turks that much either.
The genetic studies are showing that Kurds, Jews and Armenians are very close in genetic history and makeup, not surprising.
However, that's mainly on the paternal Y chromosone which is also easier to study. They're finding supposedly that the X chromosone or maternal is a lot more mixed and shows a lot more intermarriage/mixing etc...
Further, they are showing that among certain sections of Ashkenazi Jews (Cohains? I think, whatever that means) that there was likely a significant sudden in flux of foreign genes... ie. the Kazars royalt converting and some of the regular people likely as well.
I myself am very semitic looking so I would wonder what the makeup is... though some are very critical of the idea of finding out much from these studies and how relevant they can actually be.
The general idea is that your genes and certain recessive traits are like roadmaps to where your ancestors lived at certain times.
For instance, there are very common traits recessive etc... among Eastern European Jewry.
Finally, my other recollection is that 75-80% of paternal Ashkenazim markers were of Middle Eastern/Judean descent. Though it differs up and down obviously.
The Sephardim paternally had on average 90%
Some Arabs were similar to very similar... I believe Palis or speaking of the Galilee I believe, where there is believed to have been a more permanent residing, and Syrians as well as Lebanese were similar... which makes sense...
Also, remember those areas were originally NOT ARABS....
Saudis and others were more dissimilar... and they found that Yemeni and Ethiopian Jews had very similar markers and other markers..
I got very interested in this a few years back.
There are 2 great sites that used to give updates on all of the latest information maintained by top notch guys.
http://www.khazaria.com/
http://www.geocities.com/ayatoles/
http://www.familytreedna.com/genbygen.html
This is very interesting too.
I'm trying to find the site that is linked to khazaria.com that shows all the latest articles to read about the studies... but its not at khazaria.com anymore?
http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm
OK, HERE IS THE LINK WITH ALL OF THE LATEST INFORMATION AND READING ON THE TOPIC YOU'D WANT TO DO ON GENETIC TESTING OF VARIOUS POPULATIONS, SPECIFICALLY JEWRY, HERE..
I find it very interesting at least and I'm glad I found it all again and have now bookmarked it all... (Solomon linked me here)
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
So what? The fact that I'm genetically linked to monkeys doesn't make me like them, want them in my house, or would stop me from killing them if they were in my yard. We all have long memories, but not that long.
Hi there,
I'm so happy to find your blog. I'm a neo-neo con too, but for different reasons. I am tired of the old ways of standing up dictators! People must be free and have hope. Ideas are fought with better ideas...but ideas cannot get to the people because of the dictators. The time has come to free the world and the best place to start was, and is, Iraq. Saddam was the worst, and the people of Iraq and Kurdistan deserve it and they can do it! I have faith! This makes me the bane of the Liberals and to the conservatives I'm still the same names they always called me:). What to do?
Great post by the author, and great comment by George. Thanks for sharing.
Hi
I think in a world which we are living in now, every thing has become hatred! Hatred against Kurds, jews and Americans. I am a kurdish and I sometimes have bitter arguments with people in the west about how the world is working! I think most of the kurds now have a realistic approach to the global policy , this is a feeling shared by jews as well. So although we are all human, this sense of understanding makes us approach towards each other more! So I don't mind seeing the Israel's flag in Kurdistan of Iraq which is a feeling I think shared by many kurds. But will there be a kurdish flag waving any where? Well, we have to wait and see the future!
Hi
Just a thought on those links between Kurds and Jews. In addition to the family Abraham reportedly had in that general area, in &22 BC, the Assyrians deported the Northern Israelite kingdom to that general region, thus the traditional debate over "The Ten Lost Tribes."
That Kurds have been in that region for millennia and are genetically apparently even closer to Jews than Arabs are, is suggestive, nuh?
Try Enc Brit:2001, Kurds: "The prehistory of the Kurds is poorly known, but their ancestors seem to have inhabited the same upland region for millennia. The records of the early empires of Mesopotamia contain frequent references to mountain tribes with names resembling "Kurd." The Kardouchoi who attacked Xenophon and the Ten Thousand in 401 BC (near modern Zakhu, Iraq, just south of the Turkish border) may have been Kurds"
COuld this be a part of the picture?
GEM
[The Kairosfocus blog]
Oops
THe date of the deportation was 722 BC
GEM
Howard -
I don't think anyone's point was that you should be more fond of the Kurds because you share ancestory with them. Are you sure you share ancestory/genetics with monkeys, perhaps you have some donkey in your lines?
Rawaz -
Glad to hear your comments... you are correct about the realistic approach to politics. Shark Blog's father is a Professor in Israel and he says that the more they discover of ancient artifacts the more it appears that the Jewish Kingdoms were never as strong as legend has it and always had to think and negotiate and learn the art of compromise etc... his thesis is the Arab World doesn't know compromise, only ultimate victory, to their and the Palis own detriment.
Gordon -
From what I read supposedly the most preserved, researchers believe, group going to back to ancient times are the Kurds. They have maintained a tight culture, language and area dating back thousands of years it is believed.
The deportation by the Assyrians was in 500's BC some returned about 80-90 years later and the language, Aramaic was born, I believe. However, most were lost as they spread the communities and tribes out over vast areas of land.
I just read today that the Israeli Northern Kingdom (Samaria) was teh far more advanced, wealthy and learned Kingdom compared to the Judah (Judeans..... to be become known as Jews) in the South. The article suggests that some of the Israelites fled south to their rivals in the Judah Kingdom fleeing the Assyrians.
Jews are also very closely related to Armenians and Antatoli (I believe) Turks. NOTE, these are the original NON Arab peoples of the Fertile Crescent. The area wasn't Arabized until 700-800 AD.
I've seen some Assyrians, who are Christians usually, lighter than most Europeans.
Mike
The Mossad has been active in Northern Iraq for quite some time. Saddam created a special holiday for the Jews who did not leave early enough, but I cannot recall if it was yearly or monthly. His thugs would gather crowds to watch "spies" being hung, of course they were not actually spies just Jews.
I am a Kurdish Jew and I can attest to the fact that my relatives in Israel who came from Kurdistan in the 1950's wish only the best for the Kurds. One of my aunts watches Kurdish television from her special cable in an Israeli suburb of Jerusalem. Me and my friend interviewed my Kurdish-Jewish relatives now living in Israel and wrote a report on it. To read it go to
http://www.yaleisraeljournal.com/spr2005/goodman.php
This is a fascinating discussion.
Kurds: Probably the first mention of Kurds is in Sumerian documents where they are called Kor-ta-e. One theory, which I found on a kurdish site, is that although modern Kurdish is an Iranian language, that the Kurds originally spoke either a Kartvelian or North Caucasiab langugae like Hurrian or Hattic, and then switched during a period of iranian cultural dominance. The Mitanni state had an Iranian elite and Hurrian population.
"Arabs": The Iraqis that speak Arabic now have always been in Iraq. They just switched (halfway) to Arabic when it comes to language. The Sumerians considered themselves immigrants in Mesopotamia. The Akkadians and Assyrians seem always to have been in the area.
Anatolian genes in modern Jews: There is evidence for substantial Hittite settlement in what is now modern Israel. During one period prior to the Exodus about 30% of the personal names recorded were Hittite names. That is a pretty hefty slice of the ancestral population.
Thank you neo-neocon, et. alii.
Let's drink to the Judaeo-Kurdish Brotherhood along with old Uncle Noah (Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Cycle) -- who, "tiller of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard" in post-diluvian Kurdistan.
Want proof? Have a read of this scholarly work "Kurdistan, Where Credit is Due":
http://www.krg.org/articles/article_detail.asp?LangNr=12&LNNr=28&RNNr=44&showsecondimage=1&RubricNr=61&ArticleNr=41
An excerpt to whet the palate:
"It has been in Kurdistan where archaeologists have been excavating to find evidence for the invention and development of the technologies that transformed man-the-hunter into man-the-farmer and ultimately into man-the-civilized. It is as if the Kurdish mountains and their inhabitants could not possibly have been the site of technologies of such significance, despite irrefutable evidence that they themselves unearthed. Almost instinctively, archaeologists have been reluctant to attribute origins to the original inhabitants of Kurdistan. Instead, they continue to search for external originating sources, at times with a measure of desperation. When such a source eludes them, they tend to list the originating culture as "unknown." By contrast, when evidence is found in other loci of civilization, as in Mesopotamia, Egypt or Greece, for example, it is automatically attributed to these cultures until proven otherwise.
The reverse is true in treating cultures of the Kurdish mountains. The irony is that, as in the case of bear and wine discoveries, the argument supporting Sumerian involvement is based on evidence that is not only indirect but of later date (i.e., from seal impressions). Kurdish hard evidence deriving from actual fermentation vats complete with dried calcium oxalate sediments (beer residue), is dismissed. Yet Michel et al admit that the carbonized remains of barley used in preparation of the beer was also found first at Godin, as were grapes used for wine making. A brief but close examination of the archaeological evidence and the relationship that existedbetween Kurdish mountain societies and the Sumerians indicate both the direction of influence and the reasons behind it.
Godin was by no means the isolated incidence of technological sophistication in an otherwise culturally and technologically barren region that would justify the search for an external civilizing influence. In fact, the mound of Godin (or Gawdin) is located in one of the world''s richest archaeological regions stretching for one hundred miles from Shahabad, one of the capitals of the ancient Elamites, to Hamadan, the capital of the ancient Medians. In this region the problem for the archaeologist is not where to excavate but which to choose from the literally hundreds of mounds, temples, palace complexes and cave habitats. Here one finds some of the earliest evidence of the domestication of cereals (e.g., barley and wheat), livestock (e.g., goats and sheep) and development of other basic technologies datingback 11000 years (Braidwood et al,1960). Additionally, in the same region are found remains of the world''s oldest glazed pottery at Seh Gabi (Levine, 1974; Vandiver,1990), earliest experiments with writing and accounting at Godin and Ganj Dara (Schmandt-Besserat, 1986; Nissen, 1986; Green, 1981), and now, wine and beer. At a time when most of the rest of the world inhabited caves, Godin appears to have been a major city with well planned and solidly constructed buildings, a city contemporaneous with the oldest cities of Sumeria and Akkadia.
"While lacking in justification, hints by the Michel group of Sumerian origin for Godinbeer technologyprompted theNew York Tmes on 5 November to carry an article squarely attributing the invention of beer (and grape wine) to the Sumerians with no mention of the Kurdish mountains in Iran, deep inside which the actual discovery occurred. The contribution of the Kurds and their inventive ancestors was totally ignored. On the following day, the New York Post carried a cartoon depicting beer-guzzling "Sumerians" in ancient Egyptian costumes with a caption over their heads that reads, "Iraq''s Best Beer."
Thank you neo-neocon, et. alii.
Let's drink to the Judaeo-Kurdish Brotherhood along with old Uncle Noah (Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Cycle) -- who, "tiller of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard" in post-diluvian Kurdistan.
Want proof? Have a read of this scholarly work "Kurdistan, Where Credit is Due":
http://www.krg.org/articles/article_detail.asp?LangNr=12&LNNr=28&RNNr=44&showsecondimage=1&RubricNr=61&ArticleNr=41
An excerpt to whet the palate:
"It has been in Kurdistan where archaeologists have been excavating to find evidence for the invention and development of the technologies that transformed man-the-hunter into man-the-farmer and ultimately into man-the-civilized. It is as if the Kurdish mountains and their inhabitants could not possibly have been the site of technologies of such significance, despite irrefutable evidence that they themselves unearthed. Almost instinctively, archaeologists have been reluctant to attribute origins to the original inhabitants of Kurdistan. Instead, they continue to search for external originating sources, at times with a measure of desperation. When such a source eludes them, they tend to list the originating culture as "unknown." By contrast, when evidence is found in other loci of civilization, as in Mesopotamia, Egypt or Greece, for example, it is automatically attributed to these cultures until proven otherwise.
The reverse is true in treating cultures of the Kurdish mountains. The irony is that, as in the case of bear and wine discoveries, the argument supporting Sumerian involvement is based on evidence that is not only indirect but of later date (i.e., from seal impressions). Kurdish hard evidence deriving from actual fermentation vats complete with dried calcium oxalate sediments (beer residue), is dismissed. Yet Michel et al admit that the carbonized remains of barley used in preparation of the beer was also found first at Godin, as were grapes used for wine making. A brief but close examination of the archaeological evidence and the relationship that existedbetween Kurdish mountain societies and the Sumerians indicate both the direction of influence and the reasons behind it.
Godin was by no means the isolated incidence of technological sophistication in an otherwise culturally and technologically barren region that would justify the search for an external civilizing influence. In fact, the mound of Godin (or Gawdin) is located in one of the world''s richest archaeological regions stretching for one hundred miles from Shahabad, one of the capitals of the ancient Elamites, to Hamadan, the capital of the ancient Medians. In this region the problem for the archaeologist is not where to excavate but which to choose from the literally hundreds of mounds, temples, palace complexes and cave habitats. Here one finds some of the earliest evidence of the domestication of cereals (e.g., barley and wheat), livestock (e.g., goats and sheep) and development of other basic technologies datingback 11000 years (Braidwood et al,1960). Additionally, in the same region are found remains of the world''s oldest glazed pottery at Seh Gabi (Levine, 1974; Vandiver,1990), earliest experiments with writing and accounting at Godin and Ganj Dara (Schmandt-Besserat, 1986; Nissen, 1986; Green, 1981), and now, wine and beer. At a time when most of the rest of the world inhabited caves, Godin appears to have been a major city with well planned and solidly constructed buildings, a city contemporaneous with the oldest cities of Sumeria and Akkadia.
"While lacking in justification, hints by the Michel group of Sumerian origin for Godinbeer technologyprompted theNew York Tmes on 5 November to carry an article squarely attributing the invention of beer (and grape wine) to the Sumerians with no mention of the Kurdish mountains in Iran, deep inside which the actual discovery occurred. The contribution of the Kurds and their inventive ancestors was totally ignored. On the following day, the New York Post carried a cartoon depicting beer-guzzling "Sumerians" in ancient Egyptian costumes with a caption over their heads that reads, "Iraq''s Best Beer."
Thank you neo-neocon, et. alii.
Let's drink to the Judaeo-Kurdish Brotherhood along with old Uncle Noah (Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Cycle) -- who, "tiller of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard" in post-diluvian Kurdistan.
Want proof? Have a read of this scholarly work "Kurdistan, Where Credit is Due":
http://www.krg.org/articles/article_detail.asp?LangNr=12&LNNr=28&RNNr=44&showsecondimage=1&RubricNr=61&ArticleNr=41
An excerpt to whet the palate:
"It has been in Kurdistan where archaeologists have been excavating to find evidence for the invention and development of the technologies that transformed man-the-hunter into man-the-farmer and ultimately into man-the-civilized. It is as if the Kurdish mountains and their inhabitants could not possibly have been the site of technologies of such significance, despite irrefutable evidence that they themselves unearthed. Almost instinctively, archaeologists have been reluctant to attribute origins to the original inhabitants of Kurdistan. Instead, they continue to search for external originating sources, at times with a measure of desperation. When such a source eludes them, they tend to list the originating culture as "unknown." By contrast, when evidence is found in other loci of civilization, as in Mesopotamia, Egypt or Greece, for example, it is automatically attributed to these cultures until proven otherwise.
The reverse is true in treating cultures of the Kurdish mountains. The irony is that, as in the case of bear and wine discoveries, the argument supporting Sumerian involvement is based on evidence that is not only indirect but of later date (i.e., from seal impressions). Kurdish hard evidence deriving from actual fermentation vats complete with dried calcium oxalate sediments (beer residue), is dismissed. Yet Michel et al admit that the carbonized remains of barley used in preparation of the beer was also found first at Godin, as were grapes used for wine making. A brief but close examination of the archaeological evidence and the relationship that existedbetween Kurdish mountain societies and the Sumerians indicate both the direction of influence and the reasons behind it.
Godin was by no means the isolated incidence of technological sophistication in an otherwise culturally and technologically barren region that would justify the search for an external civilizing influence. In fact, the mound of Godin (or Gawdin) is located in one of the world''s richest archaeological regions stretching for one hundred miles from Shahabad, one of the capitals of the ancient Elamites, to Hamadan, the capital of the ancient Medians. In this region the problem for the archaeologist is not where to excavate but which to choose from the literally hundreds of mounds, temples, palace complexes and cave habitats. Here one finds some of the earliest evidence of the domestication of cereals (e.g., barley and wheat), livestock (e.g., goats and sheep) and development of other basic technologies datingback 11000 years (Braidwood et al,1960). Additionally, in the same region are found remains of the world''s oldest glazed pottery at Seh Gabi (Levine, 1974; Vandiver,1990), earliest experiments with writing and accounting at Godin and Ganj Dara (Schmandt-Besserat, 1986; Nissen, 1986; Green, 1981), and now, wine and beer. At a time when most of the rest of the world inhabited caves, Godin appears to have been a major city with well planned and solidly constructed buildings, a city contemporaneous with the oldest cities of Sumeria and Akkadia.
"While lacking in justification, hints by the Michel group of Sumerian origin for Godinbeer technologyprompted theNew York Tmes on 5 November to carry an article squarely attributing the invention of beer (and grape wine) to the Sumerians with no mention of the Kurdish mountains in Iran, deep inside which the actual discovery occurred. The contribution of the Kurds and their inventive ancestors was totally ignored. On the following day, the New York Post carried a cartoon depicting beer-guzzling "Sumerians" in ancient Egyptian costumes with a caption over their heads that reads, "Iraq''s Best Beer."
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well, the kurds have traditions claiming jewish descent, or descent from the ten lost tribes. in fact, some of their tribes specifically claimed descent from binyamin. add the assyrians, or correctly suryoyo, originally known to the west as nestorians, it is even mentioned in the encyclopedia judaica under kurdistan and there exist whole book on them by the missionary asahel grant called "nestorians, or the lost tribes?". many christian "arabs" are in fact also of jewish descent and they sometimes do confirm this. more interesting and even more funny are well documented traditions about descendants of those khaybarite jews in arabia, who were forcibly converted to islam. the mohamare clan from yatta in hebron hills is famous, but there are much more of them and in fact, one of the main north arabian bedouin tribal groups, the anza or anaiza is repeatadly claimed to be descended from these islamized jews. for example look into the book "the exiled and the redeemed", written by yitzhak ben tzvi, the former president of israel. the spicy point is, that the al saud and al sabah families are anza! remember, that facts are often stranger than fiction, as the cliche says. so, yes, there are peculiar links between the kurds and israel, and the kurds are not alone. nestorians, afghans, kashmiris, knanya christians in kerala, india; some of the arabs, inhabitants of certain areas in iran, even the baluchis have israelite traditions. all you need to understand, is to stop the minimalist approach to jewish history.
Hi my name is tekosher iam from kurdistan of Iraq /Sulimaniya , Iam so happy because i fonuded 1 site talk about kurdish and Israel , we are famile we are friend , we need Your help Isarel to feel we are free ? ok iam sory coz my english language its so bad , hahaha , but i like talk to some one to help me how i can come to Israel ? and what I do for that ? plz some one tell me , Iam student in collage of fine art , in sulimaniya Uni.this is my e-mail adress
golakam@hotmail.com
art_teko2@yahoo.com
tekosher@gmail.com
thanx for every one
ok iam waiting ..... plz
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