Saturday, June 10, 2006

Why Zarqawi's death matters

Despite the chorus of "yes, buts..." on the left that, although Zarqawi was indeed a nasty man who deserved to die, his death will only serve as the inspiration for more terror and was therefore not such a great event, there is evidence cropping up that the positive repercussions of his demise (and the manner of it) could go far beyond the simple fact that he is no longer around to personally perpetrate graphic evil.

Claudia Rossett has laid out the possible/probable international ramifications of his death: the importance of a command leader being taken out of commission, the significance of the fact that it was cooperating Iraqis who were part of the reason he got caught, and the intelligence information that was gained and has resulted already in a plethora of arrests.

The whole event can have a cascading effect, both emotional and practical. Zarqawi traded on his image as not only an excessively brutal man but as one who cannily eluded capture, operating under the noses of the US and Iraqis. His myth of invincibility and power is shattered. But perhaps even more important is the fact that information gathered as a result of locating his whereabouts has led to what is perhaps the largest cleanup operation of terrorists ever:

In Iraq alone, some 16 or 17 terror cells were attacked at the same time as Zarqawi was killed. And the wave of arrests — just yesterday the Swiss reported they had broken up a cell planning to attack an El Al passenger plane — is like nothing I have seen before, bespeaking an encouraging degree of international cooperation. It goes hand in hand with the devastating campaign in Iraq against the terrorist leadership. Zarqawi is just the latest to fall; most of his top associates had been eliminated over the course of the past several months.

Even the Washington Post seems to agree that Zarqawi's death may indeed have dealt a major tactical as well as propaganda blow to Al Qaeda and to terror around the world:

It is unclear which of 39-year-old Zarqawi's lieutenants, or deputy emirs, will attempt to fill his role. But whoever succeeds him will be hard-pressed to achieve the same level of notoriety or to unite the foreign fighters in Iraq under a single command, analysts said.

Some European and Arab intelligence officials said they had seen signs before Zarqawi's death that the number of foreign fighters going to Iraq was already waning. For recruitment efforts, the importance of Zarqawi's death "cannot be overestimated," Germany's foreign intelligence chief, Ernst Uhrlau, told the Berlin newspaper Der Tagesspiegel.


Of course, the killings in Iraq continue, as expected. But although they are still full of sound and fury and personal tragedy to these they directly effect, they may indeed signify less than they used to. New recruits to the jihadi cause seem to have few of the skills of the old ones, according to this AP report.

And this is no accident. The days of the training camps in Afghanistan are gone, many of that generation wiped out. It may be getting a great deal more difficult to recruit "quality" people, not to mention keeping them. High turnover is always a serious personnel problem.

Yes, we don't know what the future will bring. But the signs right now are good, and we should be heartened by the fruits of the incredible effort mounted by our military, worldwide intelligence, and the Iraqi people.

[ADDENDUM: Zarqawi's body may not be all that welcome in his country of origin, Jordan, since he enraged a few people there a while back.]

123 Comments:

At 3:19 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

you hope

 
At 3:32 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Pastorius said...

No one is happier about the assassination of Zarqawi than I.

But, we need to face facts.

Terrorists may not have training camps in Afghanistan now, but Somalia was just taken back by the Islamists, and Sudan and Nigeria are Islamist hotspots as well.

And then, there is Iran.

I fear we have not yet seen the worst of our War on Terror.

 
At 3:39 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

, they may indeed signify less than they used to.



You really are a 'glass half full' girl aren't you neo?

 
At 3:59 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

"Kill one terrorist, and two terrorists rise in his place..."

or something like that. This is a comment, as best I can figure, on the culture of shame and honor. To wit: it matters not whether the kill was righteous, or unrighteous, but only whether our honor is at stake, and whether shame is upon us as a result of the kill.

I will only say this, which I first remember reading from Stephen Den Beste, and from Wretchard:
The WOT is Islam's last, best chance. If the WOT doesn't succeed, Islam, as it is currently constituted, will be almost wiped out.

If it is true that, for a large enough population of Muslims, shame will always matter more than righteousness, then Islam is probably doomed to be wiped out by nukes. Left-side "progressives" - when they say there is no hope of overcoming the cultural shame cycle of retribution, and of "two replace the one who has fallen" - are unknowingly advocating the violent destruction of Islam. This is a rather harsh prescription. To me, President Bush's WOT is actually a "progressive", and creative, attempt to stave off the violent destruction of the religion. The left side "progressives", whether they know it or not, are advocating a stone-age solution: violently wipe out one's enemies, ASAP.

 
At 4:08 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

I'm willing to take a chance that there are a large numbers of Muslims who understand the righteousness, and the fairness, of killing Zarqawi type fighters. I've never believed there is an inexhaustible supply of young men willing to martyr themselves against America, and against Western concepts such as free will, and democracy. I'm willing to gamble that there is not an inexhaustible supply of such men, and that, as the good guys kill the bad guys, the bucket of bad guys is slowly emptying, rather than filling. I could be wrong. But I'm an optimist. It seems the humane thing to be. The truth will out. Good will prevail in the end. To believe in an inexhaustible supply of martyrs is to believe that false propaganda will always trump truth and righteousness. Always. I don't believe that. The truth will out. Potentially violent young men will come over to the side of truth and righteousness, in greater numbers than the numbers of those who go the other way. I'm willing to take that chance, and to risk my grandchildren's lives on the truth of it.

 
At 4:14 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

Which is another reason Zarqawi's death matters. It is an example, to millions of young Muslims, of righteous action. We could've taken out a large area of the city. We took out one house in our attack on a very important enemy leader. At some level, the continual humanity and righteousness of our actions has to register with some persons. Zarqawi's death is another example of that.

 
At 6:27 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

zman's death matters because it is fun killing terroists and murderers. Child killer included with the batteries.

 
At 8:03 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

you hope

Whereas the trolls hope NOT.

The "kill one terrorist and two take his place" meme is mere leftist idolization of terror. There is, in fact, a negative not a positive correlation between the killing of terrorists and the recruiting of them -- that is, the more that are killed the greater the sense that the cause is lost this way, and the greater the incentive to find another way of advancing one's beliefs.

Indecent leftists, on the other hand -- e.g., our Bobbsey Twin trolls here -- have a perverse or at least adolescent fascination with the very badness of the terrorists, and a wish to believe in their invulnerability. Hence the notion that fighting them makes them, in some mystical way, stronger. Or so they'd like to believe.

I do agree, though, that the invasion of Iraq represents, as paradoxical as it might seem, a real attmpt to limit the extent of the war on islamist terror, and prevent it from becoming a war of cultures. It's analoguous to what might have happened had England and France stepped in to block Hitler before he got to Poland. Should this attempt fail, as it very well might, regardless of Zarqawi, then the fire this next time may well dwarf all the horrors we've seen so far.

 
At 9:29 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Huan said...

once again the left tries to resurrect the ghosts of Vietnam. Once again they are trying via the media to snatch defeat from the mouth of victory.

pathetic.

 
At 9:47 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Theway2k said...

The points about Somalia and Iran being new training may or may not have validity. Iran is Shi'ite. Iran may sympathize with Al Qaeda and Palestinians, but they will only train the the Shi'ite way.

Somalian Islamists have defeated Somalian warlords and wish to establish an Islamofascist Sharia, however they have hinted at relations with America. That could not happen as a training ground for Al Qaeda.

The last training ground is probably the Sudan.

The view that the noose is ever so slowly yet consistently tightening around the neck of Islamofasicist terrorists outside of Palestine is probably a truer view.

 
At 9:59 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger kungfu said...

The dog is dead. Good riddance. But your positive "yes, and" spin isn't any more helpful than the so-called left's "yes, but" spin.

Let's face facts. Iraq is going to be a mess for a very long time. Witness the revenge killing today of Shite hostages. This thing isn't getting any better and I don't see any "last throes" anywhere in sight.

 
At 10:18 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger chuck said...

One thing that seems left out of the analyses I have seen is the effect on finances of Zarqawi's death. Many of the bombings are carried out by hired help looking for an easy buck. I expect that the Zarqawi mystique helped raised funds and that many of the top lieutenants were conduits for cash. Money, of course, is infinitely fungible and I expect the flows from Syria and Iran to be reestablished at some point, but it will take time.

This thing isn't getting any better and I don't see any "last throes" anywhere in sight.

At some point the Shia might just wipe out the Sunni. After all, the army is growing apace in size and competence and the Sunni are only some 18% of the country, nor do they have the oil resources: those lie in the Kurdish and Shia areas. There is a reason a Sunni was put in charge of the Iraqi army in the political settlement. If the settlement truly comes undone I expect to see a change in army leadership to be one of the first things to follow.

 
At 10:31 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Let's face facts. Iraq is going to be a mess for a very long time.

That's what is known as an opinion, charitably called a prediction. The first step is always to get to know what are facts, before saying what facts are or are not.

 
At 11:32 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger rich said...

He is dead without the loss of a single Iraqi or allied soldier.

His death was accompanied by the death of important subordinates, especially the intelligence operatives.

His death was accompanied by the discovery of information that will lead to the death or capture of additional terrorists.

There is no better way to show one side of a war is losing than to kill the leader.

This is a wonderful thing for the democratic Iraqi government. They are on the winning side.

Day by day, brick by brick, Iraq will become the leading state in the Middle East. With help from the West, but primarily because of people like Sistani, the Kurds, Al-Maliki, and the other brave Iraqis. Their win will not be dramatic. The win will be in the way Iraq is transformed into a normal nation, slowly but irreversably. It will happen and the opposition knows that it will happen.

 
At 12:32 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

"Let's face facts. Iraq is going to be a mess for a very long time.

That's what is known as an opinion, charitably called a prediction. The first step is always to get to know what are facts, before saying what facts are or are not."

Y, LOL when you compare it with this quote...

"Removing Zarqawi is a major blow to al Qaeda. It's not going to end the war. And it's certainly not going to end the violence. But it's going to help a lot."
Quote obtained from MSNNews
ROFL!!

 
At 2:00 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger druidbros said...

It will matter but not very much. Zarkawi's group accounted for about 10% of the insurgency in Iraq.

And dont forget the reason we are there is for the oil. Thats why Congress removed the language prohibiting perminabt bases in Iraq this week fromthe appropriations bill.

 
At 2:20 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

rich said...
There is no better way to show one side of a war is losing than to kill the leader.


The leader of what and who? A killer of Shiites.

But a month ago al Sadr was "the enemy".

Hmmm, methinks you know F all.

 
At 2:26 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

druidbros said...
It will matter but not very much. Zarkawi's group accounted for about 10% of the insurgency in Iraq.

And dont forget the reason we are there is for the oil. Thats why Congress removed the language prohibiting perminabt bases in Iraq this week fromthe appropriations bill.

3:00 AM, June 11, 2006


Welcome to the show. You'll be branded a troll shortly with educated comments like that.

These little dears think it is all about freedom and democracy.

If you want to 'fit in' here, you'd be better off cheering the deaths of innocents.

The chickenhawks love that.

 
At 3:48 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

you hope

Whereas the trolls hope NOT.
rubbish sally. Try reading my comments on here and try to think beyond you are either for or against us. Iraq is a BIG mistake. I do want to see it end in some kind of democratic peace not in yet more chaos.

You find it hard to understand that constant military action produces more chaos. Yrmadwnker celebrates very "terrorist" death, so does bin laden. Can you think why?

 
At 5:31 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger The_'Real'_Batman said...

As long as Guantanamo bay is open and the people there are left in concentration campe-sque limbo, the Muslim World will forever be against America, as it sees it as being duplicitous. That issue is a lot more painful to many Muslims than the killing of an extremist. If it closed, America could say it is waging war on terror with hand on heart. At the moment, its promises of democracy and free justice ring a little hollow

 
At 7:13 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

Yrmadwnker celebrates very "terrorist" death, so does bin laden.

Bin Laden celebrates every terrorist death at the hands of the Americans? Really? Even when no innocents are killed? When we capture information about his organization which helps us to take out more of his jihadis?

Got any links to prove that?

Or do you believe their boilerplate "we celebrate his martyrdom, blah, blah" propaganda statements. If so, I guess you must be the one who sends money to emails that start with:

Dear Sir / Madam ,

I am an accountant with the Bank of
Africa.(BOA), Dakar Senegal Branch.I am very sorry if this is an
inconvinience in any way, just that i need you to see me through
with this transfer...


Stop believing to those guys. It's a scam.

 
At 8:15 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

You find it hard to understand that constant military action produces more chaos.

You mean the sort of "chaos" that was produced at the end of the 2nd World War? The "chaos" at the end of the American Civil War? That kind of chaos? In which case, I'd say let's have some of that sort of "chaos".

But I don't think you mean that, do you? I think you mean that "military action" -- i.e., fighting and killing the terrorists and the regimes that support them -- produces more terrorists who create more "chaos", and this, as I've said, is is at best a kind of adolescent combination of fear and admiration: such awful, awesome determination they display, dude!

Which is why you and others like you -- that is, the indecent left, not the left as a whole, and certainly not people who simply disagree about the war in Iraq -- must indeed hope that the signs right now are NOT good, despite appearances. It's not a matter of judgment in other words -- for the better among you, it's simply a matter of having become too invested in the notion that "Iraq is a BIG mistake" to bear the thought that you might be wrong; for the worse, it's an unvoiced but ardent yearning to see the hated West, and America, it's representative, brought down.

 
At 8:21 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Oh, and bin Laden? Here's to his celebration of every terrorist's death, up to and including his own, and beyond. Can't kill them all? Yes we can. Just watch.

 
At 8:24 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger troutsky said...

How much will it cost to bring democracy to Somalia? Do they have any oil? Do they threaten Israel? It will be a tough slog but as long as I can sit here and eat Cheetos while watching other people die it will be worth it.

 
At 8:44 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I wish I could terminate all those who support terrorism and all who are ignorant of its effects, but that power is not within my purview.

 
At 8:52 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

The reason being is that Confud and Conned's pro-terroist comments are again exceeding the limit of human decency.

Probligo now chooses to join the fray because now that he has found allies that are as morally and intellectually similar to him, he can come out from the woodworks ala Tet.

The amount of arrogance and close minded laughter that procedes from this abundance of morality and ethical conduct, would be enough to fill the orbits of mars and jupiter combined if expanded to a different metaphysical construct.

 
At 9:42 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger snowonpine said...

I recently saw a news item which had U.S. military sources estimating that 50,000 terrorists had been killed so far in Iraq. Don't remember the source and it doesn't really matter. The point is that thousands of deluded jihadis have been flooding into Iraq to take the place of the old jihadis, who we're killing in wholesale lots.

Because our military is chewing up jihadis at such a ferocious rate, I do think that the general level of skill of the terrorists is likely to decline. Add to this our recent successes in killing many senior terrorist leaders culminating in Z-man' death and I think these developments are going to discourage the smarter of the potential jihadis from volunteering.

However, another news item, which estimated that there were thousands of madrasses, just in Pakistan alone, which were churning out jihadis illustrates that we have to work on both ends of this issue. It solves nothing if we kill 50,000 jihadis, if there are other hundreds of thousands in training. We have to change the mindset that allows, nay glories, in the teachings of these largely Wahabi madrassas.

 
At 1:56 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

If we take out Pakistan, we can checkmate Iran.

 
At 2:55 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

If we take out Pakistan, we can checkmate Iran. it is not a game stupid! If you 'take out' Pakistan you had better buy a lot of body bags. God you are so brave with othe rpeople's lives.

oh and remember

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.

 
At 3:12 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Chess isn't a game. It's a way to teach people how to think logically, how to recognize the consequences of doing something without thinking about it, and how to avoid mistakes by learning from them.

 
At 3:19 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

look sonny I have played chess since before you were born and it is a game. With limited parameters and very clear rules.

Invading or blowing up countries is not a game and real people get killed, parts of their body blown off and their sanity damaged. When you can sort out the difference between the real world and a game you might start to be a thinking man.

The problem you, and neo, and many others on here have is that you are all too willing to advocate violence without having the consequences too close to hand. Violence often causes more violence - like it or not this is true. It is not often that we can say "check mate" in this kind of situation.

 
At 3:20 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Cappy said...

...Still celebrating...

 
At 3:29 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

It is interesting to contemplate what drives young muslims to martyr themselves in a foreign country whose residents despise them. Yes, probably 90% or more Iraqis despise the jihadis passionately. Even Sunni insurgent Iraqis despise the foreign jihadi. They will take time off from killing americans to kill the jihadis. Like sport.

Interesting link, neo. Try this one if neo's link does not work, courtesy of Tim Blair.

There are those who cheer on the jihadis, who thrive on the blood shed of infidels and martyrs and innocents. Some of them are trolls at various blogsites.

 
At 3:36 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

oh yeah, *big yawn*
if you oppose the war in Iraq you are a supporter of terrorists - if you try to explain the origins of terrorism you are a supporter of terrorists - if you try to explain the motives of people who blow themselves up you are a supporter of terrorists.

change the record!

The killing of civilians is evil!

The encouragement of young people to blow themselves up is wrong!

Bin laden is a right twat!

So why do you think young palestinians blow themselves up?

are they stupid?

Brainwashed?

Possessed by demons?

Or making rational choices in irrational circuumstances?

come on then sally, al, yrmdwnkr, little apple thief, neo, comrade wasp, let us see you try to explain a few things in the world rather than suggesting how best to blow them up.

 
At 4:08 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

and while we are at it who wants a bet that neo tries to explain this mess away in her next post? Bet she blames the prisoners and can't see that illegal imprisonment just makes things worse. Bet saying this gets me called a defender of terrorism. Bet yrmdwnkr says they should all just be shot...or that shooting is too good por them.

 
At 4:46 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

if you try to explain the origins of terrorism you are a supporter of terrorists

No, you're just wasting your time. You don't understand why people become terrorists because you don't think the way they do.

Here, a British jihadi explains why he wants to destroy Britain - because of a Burger King graphic that looks like the word Allah to him:

:::

The Enlightenment happened at half past 12 a.m. in Burger King, Park Royal. I had ordered my food, and a French guy got talking to me and asked, “Are you Muslim?” He said, “Look at this,” and he showed me the cone. I saw it and I thought, “Wow,” like anyone would. He said, “Turn it around.”

I was thinking of my stomach. I was hungry. I would have loved to eat an ice cream. When I saw it, my mouth fell open. I dropped the ice cream. I canceled my order. That was the defining moment of my life.

The Burger King logo is there in Arabic. “Allah” is spelled exactly how it is there, and the Burger King logo is where the ominah should be. Why, there is no way it could be a coincidence. How can you say it is a spinning swirl? How does it spin on something that is static? You cannot spin it around unless you have a mechanical device. You spin it one direction, to the right, and it is offending a billion people.

I’m not talking about Muslims in the Park Royal vicinity, or in the U.K. I’m talking about globally. Everyone who sees this is going to be offended. If you put a different symbol on there, you’re offending Jews, Christians, Sikhs, or Hindus. I am going to try my best in life, so that these people do not operate in a single Muslim country again, so that we get an apology to every single Muslim on this planet in their language, in their country, on a national TV station: “Sorry. We, as an American company, are sorry. We didn’t mean to offend you.”

What angers me most is that most people, once they have finished with it, they look at it and say, “Nice cone. Nice design. Nice cone design.” They chuck it away. That is disrespectful. Don’t throw it away. Keep it as evidence. A reminder of what these people are doing every single day of our lives.

We showed this to Muslim customers in Burger King and they were disgusted. We went to the manager. “Is this true?” we asked. He said, “Yes, my brother. It is true.” I spoke to two other Pakistani Muslim guys there and they said, “We are sickened.” They were cussing Burger King.

I feel humiliated. I want to humiliate the person who did this to an extent that he never works again. I’m going to make him see that it was the biggest mistake in his life. I want to meet the guy. I want to ask the guy, “What does this mean to you?” then never see his face again.

In a way, I’m glad he did this to me. It has opened my eyes. The fear of God, the love of God, the love of not letting anyone disrespect God. Even though it means nothing to some people and may mean nothing to some Muslims in this country, this is my jihad. I’m not going to rest until I find the person who is responsible. I’m going to bring this country down.

:::

I believe that men like this become terrorists for the same reason some Germans joined the SS. Because they're vicious, stupid, chuckleheaded a*holes.

I'm sure you have a much more nuanced explanation. Tell us all exactly what you would do to 'reform' this jihadi, and all the other jihadis who basically think the same way.

Read what they say, in their own words. They're idiots.

 
At 4:53 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Courtesy of Conned, I was able to learn much more about the IRA Troubles that Britain had. I think it has some very relevant portions related to the terror we face in Iraq. But it is a very unorthodox interpretation.

Ira terror, to defend against British sponsored Ulster death squads

I'm sorry to inform people, but the same skills that Xbox gamers acquire is the same skills pilots use to fly Predator B UAVs in to destroy targets with hellfire missiles.

The training simulators can be considered games, but it would be wrong to see a productive activity as a game, a game defined as a waste of time which prioritizes frivolous activies. Chess is not a game, I use it as a productive activity to train my ability to read people, predict their thinking, and react with appropriate counters. Chess is a game to COnned, because Conned sees anything productive that avoids the killing of civilians as being a frivolous activity. The only serious activities to Conned, is when people are dieing. For example, this righteous smashing of neo-cons is a game to Conned. This arguing on the internet, is a game to Conned. The rhetorical supporting of terroists, is a game to Conned, because Conned isn't killing anyone directly.

Pardon me, while I don't act in the heinous and sadistically insensitive manner as Conned.

Bet yrmdwnkr says they should all just be shot...or that shooting is too good por them.

I'm humane. Those who have cooperated with the US authorities, those who have been poisoned by US decadence, those can keep their lives. Everyon else, benefits from "assisted involuntary suicide". I hear that is very popular in the Netherlands, very "tolerant and humane". Shame on Conned for acting in such a manner, as to deny the basic human right of a prisoner to assisted suicide.

For those who are still reading, and not taking a vacation from the divisive, ridicule based, and extremely uncomfortable environment that Confud and Conned has created here, please, go to my blog and read about the IRA. It might distract you just enough, to realize that there truly are different and interesting positions on substantial matters that you might care to read, and perhaps even, engage with.

Or, youcan do as I recommended to stumb and doug (one or the other anyway), and go read blackfive's comments section when Z Man died. It'll make you feel much better.

 
At 5:56 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

This is an interesting article about the US 101st Airborne Infantry in and around Ramadi, Iraq. It is from an embedded reporter who wanted to go to the meanest area of operations.

He makes an interesting point about the reporters from the BBC, Guardian, NY Times, CNN, etc. who hide in their hotel rooms while relying on Iraqi stringers to get the stories for them. "News? What news? I'm drunk under my hotel bed most all the time."

 
At 6:04 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 6:13 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

This is an interesting article about the reporting of news from Iraq and the way in which 'embedded' reporters can only give a partial view of the war, yet to try and report in other ways is dangerous and difficult.

He doesn't make childish and unsubstantiated points that rival reporters from the BBC, Guardian, NY Times, CNN, etc. who hide in their hotel rooms while relying on Iraqi stringers to get the stories for them. "News? What news? I'm drunk under my hotel bed most all the time." (and if you follow al fin's link to the article it isnt quite so simplistic but what the hell)

but argues

Failure to be open about the difficulties we face in reporting Iraq comprehensively - as independent "non-embedded" journalists - will cause us further damage still.

same old neo-cons MSM is unfair ....oh unless it prints what you want to hear.

 
At 6:27 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

All conservatives believe the MSM is very fair, to those whose side they are on.

Obviously since we are their enemies and America as a whole is something they must supplant with something less evil, like the EU or the UN, we are treated in a very unfair way.

But that doesn't mean the world media is "unfair" de facto. The complexity of this situation deserves more than just childish food fights.

 
At 7:50 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

So, I think we can dispense with the farce that you neocons stand for bringing democracy, freedom or justice to anywhere. And, clearly you don't stand for a free press or even the right to free speech in your own country.

You, bunch of extremist nationalists that you are, are the least patriotic Americans I've ever encountered and certainly the least democratic or liberal.

Amoral chickenhawks. The problem is that genuine American patriots and genuine allies to the US will be paying for your ruling cliques sins for years. In money and blood.

 
At 8:09 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

neoneoconned said...
and while we are at it who wants a bet that neo tries to explain this mess away in her next post? Bet she blames the prisoners and can't see that illegal imprisonment just makes things worse. Bet saying this gets me called a defender of terrorism. Bet yrmdwnkr says they should all just be shot...or that shooting is too good por them.

5:08 PM, June 11, 2006


And, the idiot in charge described these suicides as 'asymetric warfare' against the US. Assinine, disgusting dribble that would sound normal for a fruit loop like wasp man.

What a world. Nutcase extremists fighting nutcase extremists while the rest of us look on in horror. the idiotic has become the normal.

 
At 8:14 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

al fin said...
This is an interesting article about the US 101st Airborne Infantry in and around Ramadi, Iraq. It is from an embedded reporter who wanted to go to the meanest area of operations.

He makes an interesting point about the reporters from the BBC, Guardian, NY Times, CNN, etc. who hide in their hotel rooms while relying on Iraqi stringers to get the stories for them. "News? What news? I'm drunk under my hotel bed most all the time."

6:56 PM, June 11, 2006


Can't you get Al Jazeera? Despite being targeted by US troops they provide quite good coverage. You should make the effort.

 
At 8:18 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Senescent Wasp said...

Whats'a matter Conned Fudd? Having a bad day. Conspiracy theories got you down, bubbie? Can't keep 'em all straight?

Just remember when everything begins to look darkest, don't look up. It's the shadow of a GBU-12. We still have the guns and we will for quite a while. I quite liked the wars I got to fight in and I'm just sad I'm too old to make floppies in this one. That's an old term that the Selous Scouts used to use in Rhodesia. Learned a lot of counter insurgency, applied, from those guys. Edited a big lessons learned text that still circulates. Did a right nice bush brew up. You see we know how to do it, but it takes a while to get our largish military singing on the same page.

Illegal imprisonment? Whose Laws? Intenational? You wanna serve the warrant, bubbie? Roll up, roll up step up to the line, three throws for a nickel.

Hey, did ya' hear Fudd? Army made its' recruitment numbers again. You little piss ants are only fit to laugh at when I've not got anything better to do. And, I've got better. Brandy, a cigar and a movie DVD. Hang by the thumbs, boys.

 
At 9:57 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Can't you get Al Jazeera? Despite being targeted by US troops they provide quite good coverage. You should make the effort.

And boy, doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about confud.

Come to think of it, he never did deny being a Muslim, just called me "very very childish" for suggesting it...

 
At 10:06 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Goesh said...

I see a few are still reading the Wog lovers (trolls) posts, but the numbers are dwindling. I sort of scratched my head when I read the title of this one, but then we all still will take the bait of the Left at times and feel a need to respond. What a day in our affairs when we feel we must explain why taking a mad dog, mass murderer off the streets is a good thing. i.e. why it matters. How about, "Why taking Ted Bundy off the streets mattered" for a follow-up? Killing zaqawri will draw terrorists in by the droves for revenge purposes - the suckers won't be able to resist the chance to engage and show the world they still have some punch. Ohhhhh! lock n' load, baby. Iraq is no longer a piece of fly paper, it is a fu***** magnet! There is no telling the number of Special Ops lads from other countries that are begging and vying to get a piece of the action and get some live-fire time in. And mercenaries? The hapless Left doesn't have a clue of what is really going on in Iraq, and I'm not talking Western mercenaries either. Professionals from all over the world are on hand, in limited number of course, including Muslims, to get some serious cash for hunting and killing jihadis. The stupid Left actually thinks jihadis just drop the quran and pick up an AK and presto! you have an instant, trained, seasoned, experienced, blooded guerilla. Unbelievable! I mean Lefties are some real dip-shits. It's the cadre commanders, the NCOs if you will, that count in their ranks, the boys that have been blooded in Chechnyna, Kasmir, Afghanistan, Beirut, Gaza and the Bekkah Valley, etc. that have led men in fire fights and can organize and give orders - for every one of them we can kill, a couple dozen of their 'troopers' will sacrifice their lives blindly in response. 1500+ in Fallujah alone and another big push is coming up in Ramadi and I got a crisp 50$ says the number will be even higher than Fallujah. Common sense said it would be this way, that they would come by the thousands and thousands to die. Doesn't anyone remember the tapes of the initial invasion and the vehicles that would come charging across fields towards our forces? Hello? Duh! Anyone home in Leftyville?? A truck load of jihadis with machine guns and allah in the passenger seat and they came rushing at our tanks and died like swine, or at least like fish in a barrel. That's why z's deah matters - it will greatly accelerate the major depletion of trained, experienced cadre commanders from all over the world. Why do you think the borders are left so porous? What? You don't think we had the manpower to put say 50K troops on the borders in Iraq as well as the 130K inside iraq? The Left's tactical analysis and insight is like the Sunday comics. By the way, where were the human shields? I thought they would be protecting zaqawri with life and limb.....

 
At 10:35 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Z Man's women LTs were the human shields he was depending upon to protect him. A jihadi man, relying upon his women to shield him, pathetic.

 
At 10:41 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Well, the marriage guidance counsellor has herself some real class cheerleaders now doesn't she?

Do you condone these comments neo?

wog lover? Cheering the slaughter of innocents? 12 year olds who obsess about the 'obscene left'. And of course, the obligatory tough guys (hiding on the internet behind their keyboards) Always amusing.

Well neo?

 
At 11:16 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Senescent Wasp said...

Fudd, we could probably work something out for a mutually agreeable dojo. You got a gi? we could probably find one to fit you.

Could probably raise some good money for charity. Mine would be Soldier's Angels.

 
At 11:33 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

You are a vying with Ymar and Sally as the sites thickest sicko.

 
At 12:16 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Since Ymar, Sally, and Wasp all have unique and distinct voices, that goes as follows that there be natural competition.

 
At 1:20 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

Ohhhhh! lock n' load, baby. Iraq is no longer a piece of fly paper, it is a fu***** magnet!

....woah this place is getting seriously disturbed. What a bunch of wannabe psychopaths you have collected here neo.

Wonder which one will be first to be found going mad in a mall with an automatic weapon? My money is on comrade wasp. Living out a counter insurgency fantasy in his head, while barking out orders at the hapless shoppers, who look blankly at him, which he treats as treachery....and he shoots.

Oh my you have some quality lunatics in the USA. Good job that the overwhelming majority reject all this childish and very simplistic violent neocon nonsense, recognise that the mess in Iraq is going to have be stopped and soon, and even President Bush thinks it is time to negotiate.

....meanwhile on a laptop near yrdwnkr..

"pow, zap, kersmash, 'your dead', no I ain't 'cos this sweater is bullet proof, magic, given to me by the fairies...."

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.



yeah right yrmdwnkr

 
At 2:48 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

The Simple Song of the Trolls:

Sickos, rascists, Oh. Mi. God.
You lot have really lost it this time.

Sickos, rascists, Oh. Mi. God.
You lot have really lost it this time.

(Repeat until calm. Then wipe foam from oral cavity, ingest downers, and try to get on with what remains of one's so-called life.)

Note that this 2-line chorus is suitable for easy and rapid copy-and-paste as "comment", even during onset of seizure induced by reading Neo-neocon blog.

 
At 3:12 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Sally said in her particularly tightarsed high schoolish primness...

Indecent left, trolls....

zzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzz...


Thought you'd be figuring out how to blame those kids on the beach Sally. Too busy celebrating?

 
At 3:28 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

stumbley said...
Can't you get Al Jazeera? Despite being targeted by US troops they provide quite good coverage. You should make the effort.

And boy, doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about confud.


Clearly, you've never seen it. I watched it last time I was in Dubai and was very impressed at their ability to present a fairly balanced view despite being so close to the source.

But, you've been told "Al Jazeera bad" so you have that think to guide you. "The Decider" has decided for you.

Voila. Bliss.

 
At 5:13 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Roosevelt didn't decide anything for us, well except for going into a foreign war that is when he said he wouldn't.

 
At 5:21 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Ace tells why he loves Z-Man's death, and hates sponsors of terroists

 
At 9:40 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Clearly, you've never seen it. I watched it last time I was in Dubai and was very impressed at their ability to present a fairly balanced view despite being so close to the source.

Yes, I have. And boy, doesn't that really tell you everything you need to know about confud.

Again, reading the comments here causes conned and confud so much pain; do you suppose they're masochists at heart? No other explanation, somehow.

 
At 9:46 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Oh, and by the way, here's a link to someone who's really "close to the source" with a little bit different opinion of people like those who run Al-Jazeera:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/


But of course, since it's a blog in support of democracy, America's presence in Iraq, and the necessity of the American "occupation", it must be (wait for it) a right-wing blog.

Horrors!

 
At 12:39 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

neo con blog, some right wingers like David Duke is okay, for the left, if they villify America. Which Duke does do.

I always say, the political spectrum is a globe. If you go far enough left, you'll hit the far right.

 
At 12:40 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Don't forget, Iraq the model, is the very model of a modern cia plant.

 
At 12:47 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Ymar:

Not likely.

 
At 1:35 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

Again, reading the comments here causes conned and confud so much pain; do you suppose they're masochists at heart? No other explanation, somehow.
Well try a bit of imagination....why would they bother? Ah well have to fall back on the old neo on catch all explanation for the behaviour of other people....they must be nuts!. or trolls!

tried to get my head round that link...found this This is a war between all the good and all the evil.
yeah well that was the point when i thought who cares if it is a right or left wing blog it is a simplistic one, and not very informative.

 
At 2:14 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

stumbley said...
Oh, and by the way, here's a link to someone who's really "close to the source" with a little bit different opinion of people like those who run Al-Jazeera:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/


But of course, since it's a blog in support of democracy, America's presence in Iraq, and the necessity of the American "occupation", it must be (wait for it) a right-wing blog.

Horrors!

10:46 AM, June 12, 2006



Now, let me get this straight. I've seen Al Jazeera and you claim to have seen Al Jazeera.

Somehow I'm supposed to dismiss a news service (owned by a family who has a vested interest in the continuation of US power in the region) but believe the blog (which I've seen before) which is blatant childlike propaganda with little semblance of truth or integrity,

O K

 
At 2:20 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Ymar:

Not likely.


Oh come on man, don't be a neo con. You know it be the absolute truth.

but believe the blog (which I've seen before) which is blatant childlike propaganda with little semblance of truth or integrity,

See, even Confud agrees with me that it be a neo-con plant. Don't be cruddy, you know it is true. Come on, repeat it, you know it is true!!

 
At 2:59 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Confud:

We all know what you "believe". It's a given. You worship at the altar of Uncle Joe and think that the world will ultimately accept the Socialist Truth. Problem is, your darling Palestinians don't seem to be capable of doing anything other than fire AK-47s at each other, Israelis, and anyone else who doesn't want to knuckle under. See this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060612/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_shootout;_ylt=AmKxG8JIaE_jfnBe17YGzvWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

And that's from Yahoo...mainstream enough for you?

And these are the people we're supposed to consider "the most betrayed people on earth"?

They have betrayed themselves more times than I can count.

mmm let's see, I'm "very very childish", Iraq the Model is "childlike propaganda", we're "little dears", "12 year olds"...

looks like ol' confud has an inordinate interest in children...

Oh, just kidding!

Congratulations to the Ozzies on their World Cup victory, by the way...

 
At 3:02 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Here's a better link, from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Palestinians-Shootout.html?hp&ex=1150171200&en=e2cfb6ee09ff3030&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 
At 3:42 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Stumb, you can't expect Confud just to take the NYT's word for it, he has to have neutrality and concise judgement here. Just believing something cause it is in print, Confud is not going to be bought into by that. Only neo-cons are bought in by the printed word on Faux News.

 
At 3:59 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

whats to celebrate about palestinians shooting each other? more mayhem? more death? why not think what might create peace?

USA team needed a bit more guile if they were going to beat the czechs. Not a bad game though.

 
At 4:01 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Hyperbole - Extravagant exaggeration.

Straw man - creating a false or weak argument ascribed to your opposition so as to easily defeat them. See also "Windmill, fighting"

Epithet of Abuse - a label used to stigmatize the opposition so that their arguments may be ignored without examination. Dishonest means of winning an argument without any intellectual give-and-take or for that matter any facts.

Fanatic - marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion. See Hoffer "True Believer" for excellent examination of how their mind doesn't work like our's (some anyway).

Paraphrasing Cleland's Fanny Hill: Even on a dungheap a rose might be found.

Anyone getting my point? Or am I just pissing in the wind? Am I standing upwind or downwind...

 
At 4:17 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

conned:

Not celebrating at all. Just more of the same ol', same ol' from people who seem incapable of just letting go of age-old jealousy and hatred. I wish they could listen to the few moderates and democrats in their midst, but it just seems impossible sometimes.

USA team needed a bit more guile if they were going to beat the czechs. Not a bad game though.

Geez, they were pathetic!

 
At 4:38 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

well i was being kind.

The point is to encourage the moderates, the democrats the practical people who are willing to cut a deal. Pretty it is not but practical it is. How people wish that secular Islam with all its socialist tendencies had received a bit more support from the west as we never really uderstood that something worse was waiting in the wings.

i honestly believe that if we could defuse Israel-Palestine it would be a start to solving some of the others. And every time I read of more violence and confrontation there i despair of a solution ever being reached - just endless violence, counter-violence, counter counter-violence etc.

I would hope that none of us would revel in the existence of this violence as it is just more misery for the many ordinary people who are just trying to get by in these places.

Ariel all that strawman stuff gets thrown at everybody on these blogs and is seriously a waste of time. Everbody says that evrybody else is arguing to th eperson, fanatical etc etc.

If you wanna argue just go for it.

You have to accept that it is not a neat and tidy debate - I think the very format of blogs precludes this. Also sometimes it is fun to mock your opponents, try to trip them up, get them to contradict themselves. We all do it. Some more sucessfully than others. Personally i found the whole "you are not arguing properly" line of debate a bit futile and would rather be called an idiot or laughed at.

...but then i am just a troll :-)

 
At 4:43 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Anyone getting my point? Or am I just pissing in the wind? Am I standing upwind or downwind...

On a general sense, yes. Considering the lack of names, and examples, I can only understand it from a general perspective.

My arguments with cak(reiz) and mary and others, stand in contrast with Conned depiction that "everything is like that, so it is okay to misbehave and act out like" Conned does.

 
At 4:47 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

hmmm dead logical

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.

 
At 5:50 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Senescent Wasp said...

In other words, to Neo, neo cunt and Conned Fudd, the comments section is for Internet performance art and provocation.

Every so often I find a space where the commenters are worth reading. But, in almost all that don't moderate comments, eventually the trolls, the dingleberry's and the disruptor's make it impossible for the discussion to continue.

The only silver thread is that I observe the polity moving further and further into opposition to the left, further marginalizing them as they marginalize themselves.

This thread is now closed. Dead 'un, drop it>

 
At 6:16 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Neoneconned,

You are no fun. And I thought it was rain. :-)

I wasn't calling anyone here a fanatic, although it may apply. It was to an early comment regarding Islamototalitarians. You can fool yourself believing "they are just like us" or "talking to them will bring them around". Hoffer pointed out that the hallmark of a true believer is that they have the truth, their truth is unassailable and irrefutable. Period. Anything you say or do will be reorganized, reinterpreted, to fit their truth. Period. The ultimate, self-referential mind.

As for arguing, used to be my life. My main technique was manipulation of their own arguments or baiting, whichever necessary, until I had them realizing they were at a dead end. One friend always had choice words for me, but then he was a Wobblie. Too easy. But in ways, very dishonest.

Anyway, much of this is all sound and fury, signifying nothing. Whether you two trolls :-) realize it or not, you have put out some cogent arguments ( see Cleland's Fanny Hill) that have caused a readjusment in my thinking. Don't be gleefull, it was very, very slight. :-)

 
At 7:19 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

stumbley said...
conned:

Not celebrating at all. Just more of the same ol', same ol' from people who seem incapable of just letting go of age-old jealousy and hatred.


So, we have progressed to the last refuge "jealousy".

The real questions are greeted with silence by the bigots and arab haters on here though, always. Jealousy is as complex as they are capable of. Just keep celebrating the Israeli beach party boys and girls.


And Stumbley, if you are going to invent a position for me and then proceed to poke fun at the construct, you'll get callouses long before you score. Story of your life probably.

 
At 7:32 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Hey stumb, do you want me to tell these people that Hamas setup that little beach party themselves or should you?

 
At 7:45 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

No, Y, go ahead. They won't believe it anyway.

The "jealousy" part, confud, was about Hamas and Fatah. Jealous of each other, don't you know. Each wants to be in power, to skim the $$ from the EU and Wahhabists.

As for "inventing a position" for you, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 
At 8:22 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Well, they won't believe that Z-Man died and this will shatter his organization either, but it's still true.

 
At 11:55 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

As for "inventing a position" for you, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Try this. You have no idea of my political leanings.

8:45 PM, June 12, 2006
We all know what you "believe". It's a given. You worship at the altar of Uncle Joe and think that the world will ultimately accept the Socialist Truth.



As for your merry kidding with the little brown shirt Ymar about the slaughter of kids on a day at the beach.................that about sums you up. Keep protesting that you're not a racist pond dweller though. Aryan Nation is a caaaaaaalling you.

I'm sure neo is glad you are her biggest fawning fans.

 
At 12:08 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Senescent Wasp said...
Whats'a matter Conned Fudd? Having a bad day. Conspiracy theories got you down, bubbie? Can't keep 'em all straight?

Just remember when everything begins to look darkest, don't look up. It's the shadow of a GBU-12. We still have the guns and we will for quite a while. I quite liked the wars I got to fight in and I'm just sad I'm too old to make floppies in this one. That's an old term that the Selous Scouts used to use in Rhodesia. Learned a lot of counter insurgency, applied, from those guys. Edited a big lessons learned text that still circulates. Did a right nice bush brew up. You see we know how to do it, but it takes a while to get our largish military singing on the same page.


I say old chap, that's what we call in the trade "a spectacular own goal". I suppose you can count big bad Granada as a win, but all the others look well....hmmmm.....like losses.

They don't call your military "The Friendly Fire Force" for nothing after all. But what would we pissants know eh?

 
At 12:36 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

confud:

Sorry if I confused your "one world" aspirations with socialism. It seemed to fit. As for the "racism" bit, I'm sure you have no idea what my opinion of Arabs is. I do not trust the Palestinian "leadership" to have the best interests of the "6 million" at heart, as the events I alluded to earlier will attest. The "leadership" is rife with criminals and corruption on all sides.

I wish nothing but peace for everyone in the ME, not that you'll believe me. But the apparent rampant Palestinian hatred of the "other" (which includes Israelis, Americans, and people who don't think like whatever group has the reins) seems to torpedo any chance at achieving it.

I am not making light of the beach tragedy; however, recent evidence indicates that the civilians were killed by something other than an Israeli artillery shell. Of course, you won't believe that, but the absence of a crater, and the relatively undisturbed personal effects don't offer much in the way of proof of an HE round having landed there.

The tendency of the media and the Palestinians to stage phony "massacres" has left me with more skepticism (or would you prefer scepticism?) than you.

When you start bandying about epithets like "racist", "moron", "idiot" and the like, simply because people don't agree with your positions, it tends to limit the efficacy of your "debate."

It's clear you harbor a deeply-felt affinity for the Palestinians. One begins to wonder why...if it's because they are oppressed and "betrayed" as you say, and your heart bleeds for the oppressed and betrayed, one wonders why you don't rail on about Darfur, say, or Kosovo, or Beslan. Or is that because it's Muslims doing the killing?

 
At 1:09 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

No Stumbley,
I've explained my position more than once.

This has been going on for too long, it is a shining beacon for islamic extremists and it will fester on and on if the US doesn't get serious about reining in the crooks in the Israeli leadership and the far right zionist settlers.

Unconditional support? Think on that and the implication.

The fact that you believe that there is a history of staging these things says more to me about your hypnotic state and the belief system that you employ. Seriously.

If you look hard at the Israeli leadership you will find massive corruption on a far greater scale than anything the fool Arafat ever got away with. And you are paying for it without question or accounting.

All the oppressed peoples deserve sympathy and help but I have seen the result of Israeli 'defence' so maybe that accounts for a small part of it.

If the world is serious about ending these things then the whole system of international law must be respected and strengthened and the UN must be reformed. Everyone wants it. Why does the US (with Israeli blessing) resist it?

Read the history with an open mind. The election of Hamas was the best chance for the peace process in decades and we've squandered it with petty vindictiveness and ever greater hypocrisy. They ARE willing to talk and they've given every indication of being responsible but the 'demands' on them are unattainable. A classic catch 22 construction. They did the same to Arafat after Oslo.

It shows the Israeli/US peace stance absolutely starkly as a sham. Isn't it about time that people in the US started having a say about this? And about time that you actually heard the real story rather than just the propaganda?

 
At 1:20 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

And about time that you actually heard the real story rather than just the propaganda?

I'm afraid we'll just have to disagree, then. I think the one taken in by propaganda is you. I've read the history. For you, it starts in 1947...trouble is, it's been going on for 5,000 years.

I know how you feel about Michelle Malkin, but just take a look at this:

http://www.michellemalkin.com/

Scroll down to "The Lie Lives On". Sorry, but that kind of thing happens all too often.

You keep talking about Israeli "ethnic cleansing". I don't think you have a clue about the definition of "ethnic cleansing."

This is ethnic cleansing:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/12-1141.jpg

I don't blame Israelis for saying "never again."

and no, I'm not Jewish.

 
At 1:44 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

You are prepared to put a link to Malkin and then use a holocaust story to garner sympathy and say in the same breath that I am confused by propaganda?

Jeeeezuss, look at what you've typed!!!

No wonder you nuts think the media is leftist.

What European Jews went through doesn't make ir right for them to do the same thing to the Palestinians. It's not only not right, it is a massive hypocrisy.

Of course they have practised ethnic cleansing. It is right there in front of you. Look at the fecking map.

Incidentally, the most ardent antiIsraelis I know are both Jewish. Both have seen first hand the outright racism and institutionalized apartheidt of the Israel that you all love and pay for.

 
At 1:54 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

hmm well maybe it is in the Israeli's interests to do just that. Read this accountfrom the Jerusalem Post of the beach 'incident'. Now it does seem reasonably clear that the IDF were responsible and also that each of these incidents is preceded and proceeded by another. Read the depressing acount of who did what to whom. One bloody incident after another..

Only by breaking this cycle will things be changed. Or do you think it is possible to "defeat" the Palestinians? And if so how? By killing all of them?

I do find it interesting that while you are so sceptical of the MSM you are willing to trawl the blogs to find anything that props up your world view of the IDF as pure as driven snow. They are not. Like many military organisations involved in violence innocent people get killed.

and don't forget this mess is one of the key driving forces behind many other aspects of terrorism.


....and did comrade wasp say what i thought he said?

 
At 2:22 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

And it hardly rates a mention in the US press!!

And meanwhile neo marvels at fruitmarkets in Nirvanatown.

Fidly-dee Fiddly-dum.

And yes the putrescent insect is a naughty naughty boy.

 
At 3:13 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Confudeforeigner,
Did you mean "Aryan Nation" as in Nazi, or did you mean "Aryan Nations", as in the Idaho-based white-supremecist hate group?
If you meant the latter, I wouldn't bring them up again, because they are on your side, not SW's. :-(
Godwin's Law rocks. :-)
I shouldn't have told you before you answered. Damn, I messed an opportunity.

 
At 3:14 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"Indecent leftists, on the other hand -- e.g., our Bobbsey Twin trolls here -- have a perverse or at least adolescent fascination with the very badness of the terrorists, and a wish to believe in their invulnerability. Hence the notion that fighting them makes them, in some mystical way, stronger. Or so they'd like to believe."

Sally, don't remind us they are trolls, and say 'don't feed them' then bait them with a half truth like this...

 
At 3:59 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"If you wanna argue just go for it.

You have to accept that it is not a neat and tidy debate - I think the very format of blogs precludes this. Also sometimes it is fun to mock your opponents, try to trip them up, get them to contradict themselves. We all do it. Some more sucessfully than others. Personally i found the whole "you are not arguing properly" line of debate a bit futile and would rather be called an idiot or laughed at."


Right. There is no need or place for civility, or for honor, or silly antiquated concepts of that sort. Politeness has it's place, as does coarseness, but where there is a sense of propriety, one should be reticent to introduce a crass atmosphere needlessly. I don't like to see posters who have been polite and proper start using profanity and tossing insults when I know they didn't do it before it became common here recently, so this applies to all. 'What the hay, at least it's fun'. Fun can get you in a heap of trouble, and while I'm all for it, seeing it as justification for anything is a bit adolescent, isn't it?

If you like this as 'sport' you've got a blogger account within which you can create an arena and rules (or lack thereof) to your liking. Coming into someone elses arena and ignoring their rules is at the least rude, and certainly disrespectful. In some cultures, disrespect is taken rather seriously, would you exhibit such behavior there? When I went to Turkey, I dressed appropriately in going to Mosques or other holy places. According to your rules, I'm not Muslim, why should I have bothered taking off my shoes?

"...but then i am just a troll :-)"

Sometimes, sometimes not. At leasts you're far more honest than our friend in Oz, for whom this is all just sport.

 
At 4:03 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Ariel....

If you meant the latter, I wouldn't bring them up again, because they are on your side, not SW's


For someone who claims a level of 'nuance(sic)' you can be a little hard to tug along sometimes ariel. If you think they are on my "side" you are quite wrong. If you think they are "opposed" to the decaying Orangeman, you are also quite wrong.

The difference between hating Jews and hating Arabs is a choice only of allegiance. Allegances as you would know are fleeting matters of convenience.

Aryan Nation hates both don't they? That would be, all the semitic people. And they hate gays more.

A state is a different proposition altogether. A state is a legal construct and if it is rotten by design it will remain rotten. Israel was borne of ethnic cleansing, terrorism in the truest sense and religious/racial intolerance. It works to this day on nepotism and paternalism. It is riven with racial intolerance both within its borders and without.

The leaders of this state are rotten to the core with the very corruption its most vociferous cheerleaders (you) accuse their victims of.

IMO it is the worst rogue state on earth. Let us not forget that there were roughly 700.000 refugees in 1947.

Read. It may be a cliche, but follow the money. Who pays for the 'settlements'?

 
At 4:04 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Douglas,
Well said.

 
At 4:08 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

douglas said...
"Indecent leftists, on the other hand -- e.g., our


If you want to have a go, sunshine , address me personally.

Grow up. Twat.

 
At 4:16 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

You see, you lot are like soccer hooligans. Douglas is upset by the use of argument and the resultant use of 'profanity' )ooooooh how tewible) by the chickenhawks. Am I going too fasr for you here sweeties?

Anyway.....So (in Douglas's world)it's our fault that senescent wasp said the c word.

Now, apply that logic to 6 your view of 6 million Palestinians or 1.6 billion muslims. mmmm

Hmmm.

 
At 4:27 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh, and BTW, I don't give a flying F about soccer. It is a game of cheating, play acting and dishonesty.

If Australia won it I'd be mildly pleased for Soccer Australia's CEO John O'Neil, who came from rugby. But, I'd have as much respect for the team as I do for Greg Norman and Lleyton Hewitt. None.

Human spirit. None.

Hairdressers. Pfft.

 
At 4:38 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Confudeforeigner,
Actually, no. They support the Palestinians. Go to http://www.aryan-nations.org, but make sure your shower has hot water. They have been dropping the racial hatred, 'cepting the Jews, over time. They want a separate "Aryan Nation" (Iran maybe? you should get the multifaceted pun). They see all this as the Jew using/abusing the Muslim. It's an oversimplification of their twisted logic, but haven't the time to go deeper.

I'm too rusty on the history of the formation of Israel itself to offer a cogent "otherside", I'm more familiar with the period around WWI. When the Arabs realized the Mandate meant the formation of a possible Jewish state called "Palestine" (Palestinian meant Jew at that time), they attempted to drive the Jews out by force. This was in the 1920's. They failed.

Corruption seems to be the hallmark of the entire region.

Besides, you were being poked. I monitor racialist sites off and on and knew you had made an egregious error. Hate makes strange bed-fellows. Did you know that in America, perhaps elsewhere, the word "neo-con" translates to "Jew" for racialists and anti-semites? It makes some of your "rants" against neo-cons oddly funny.

Nothing in the above should be construed as accusing anyone of racialism or anti-semitism, nor were any animals harmed in the making of this comment.

 
At 4:45 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

douglas: Sally, don't remind us they are trolls, and say 'don't feed them' then bait them with a half truth like this...

Which half would that be, douglas?

I don't recall saying "don't feed them", though that by itself is a largely pointless exercise. However, the behavior of Conned and his obtuse sidekick Confused on this blog is contemptible, and I don't mind giving them the contempt they deserve.

Let me explain a little more of what I mean by that, and something about troll behavior of which you seem unaware. Trolls are labelled such because their purpose is not to engage in any sort of real conversation, debate, or even communication -- instead, their purpose is precisely to undermine, disrupt and destroy communication, throw sand in the works, so to speak. They do this with a number of fairly obvious tactics -- frequent short, harrassing making comments that have no content but insult or mockery (as in, "you lot have really lost it now") directed at the entire blog and its readership, for example. They also do it in only slightly more sophisticated fashion -- and here's where their label comes in -- by "trolling" for unwary victims using the bait of apperently reasonable content. Bite on that bait, however, and you soon find yourself dragged to exhaustion by easy tactics of dodging points, changing topics, moving goalposts, demanding ever more evidence as each source you supply is airily waved away, and merely repeating, endlessly, arguments you've already answered. In some cases, it can suit them to keep a fish on the line for a while, by seeming to favor them with more of the bait, reason -- but that's only as a means of prolonging their game, the only real point of which is to turn any conversation into mere noise.

And this is why, douglas, my direction to you (since we're handing directions out) is not merely not to "feed" the trolls, but not to rise to their bait either.

 
At 4:48 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

It isn't surprizing that you have misinterpreted the insult "neocon" to mean Jew, when it would actually mean 'zionist'.

Read the NACP project. the arch amoralist Wolfowitz is now Bush's CEO at the World Bank. how much money can they disappeaar in 5 short years?

 
At 4:49 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Soccer's ok for kids, if you like skeletal injuries.

Rugby, on the other hand, isn't for kids. It is pure cool barbarism. I was once resoundly booed for saying Rugby players were tougher than Football (American) players. I don't believe either could survive the other's game, the training and emphasis is vastly different, but Rugby players take continuous abuse, Football players don't.

This seemed to be an interesting thread for male-bonding.

 
At 5:03 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

1. Football (soccer if you must) is the best game in the world.

2. I troll when debate turns into abuse. Comrade wasp and Sally get trolled because they are dismissive and often offensive. I debate with those who wish to debate. As, I think Douglas said, where is the fun in arguing with those you agree with? No fun. I am all for arguing, gently mocking, or outright rowing with whoever. If you ever don't like what I say tell me. As forComing into someone elses arena and ignoring their rules is at the least rude, and certainly disrespectful. I think neo's rules are. 1. No swearing or profanity (unless it is genuinely funny) 2. No being horrible about neo because neo does not do debate. Have I missed any?

3. Ariel I really don't get the point about the Aryan nation. Just because I think there should be justice for the Palestinians does not mean I have to support every lunatic group using the issue for their own ends.

 
At 5:05 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Nope, sorry, I stick by the racialist and anti-semitic use of "neo-con". Besides, "zionist" has had the same problem in America, ask any neo-nazi. Anyone here know David Duke? Sorry, he was KKK, they wear hoods. I've seen pictures somewhere...

I am not saying that anyone using either term is a racialist, anti-semite, or neo-nazi so don't get your knickers all twisted. But you do have to listen closely. If they are hissed out, you listen closer. Connotation versus denotation, don't ya know. National experience and all that.

You see, Horatio, there may be more to America than dreamt of in your weltanschaung.

 
At 5:09 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

ariel: What I don't care for from anyone, is labeling and name-calling as I have a strong gag reflex.

confud: If you [douglas] want to have a go, sunshine , address me personally.

Grow up. Twat.


I wasn't expecting you to actually gag, Ariel, but I was hoping for more than an attempt at sports-buddy bonding, or even "having a poke".

 
At 5:15 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Ariel said...
Soccer's ok for kids, if you like skeletal injuries.

Rugby, on the other hand, isn't for kids. It is pure cool barbarism. I was once resoundly booed for saying Rugby players were tougher than Football (American) players. I don't believe either could survive the other's game, the training and emphasis is vastly different, but Rugby players take continuous abuse, Football players don't.

This seemed to be an interesting thread for male-bonding.

5:49 AM, June 13, 2006


Huh, you know (and this isn't an insult or a piss take), but the lesser rugby game (rugby league) jettisons a lot of its lesser lights to play NFL.

I played grid iron (for 3 months) when I was a kid and it was way duller than either rugby code.

Wonder how Ymar would go against me? heeehee.

 
At 5:32 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Same for you sally.

Have a go.

(And prove your commitrment by staying aroud when things get tough).


Chatilla and Sabra, Sally. Well bebunked my arse.

 
At 5:37 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Ariel said...
Nope, sorry, I stick by the racialist and anti-semitic use of "neo-con". Besides, "zionist" has had the same problem in America, ask any neo-nazi. Anyone here know David Duke? Sorry, he was KKK, they wear hoods. I've seen pictures somewhere...

I am not saying that anyone using either term is a racialist, anti-semite, or neo-nazi so don't get your knickers all twisted. But you do have to listen closely. If they are hissed out, you listen closer. Connotation versus denotation, don't ya know. National experience and all that.

You see, Horatio, there may be more to America than dreamt of in your weltanschaung.

6:05 AM, June 13, 2006

So, if racists use "neocon" as a racist term, Neocons aren't racist?

I don't think so. And i'll not insult you by giving you the logic.

Would like to say "nice try', but it wasn't, Lazy.

 
At 5:40 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Neoneconned,

1. I was directing the "Aryan Nation" at Confudeforeigner, who brought it up. Poke about is fair play, by your rules I might add.

2. Honestly, seriously accusing anyone of racism will raise my hackles fast unless you've got hardcore proof and I mean hardcore. Bigotry, ok, because the bigot can change and isn't the worst person in the world, just ignorant or misinformed. The racist, however, led to Jim Crow in my country, lynching of black soldiers returning from war, etc., so I don't accept trivializing that word. Never.

3. By Football, I meant the American sport. Rugby is still way cool versus any form of Football. Sorry, I guess no male-bonding.

Sally,
I'm being flippant. No one is an enemy here, an irritant perhaps, but not an enemy, on the other hand like of sleep affects my judgement. Also, I'm not keeping up with the flow of all the posts as I am a slooooow writer and am writing in a different tab. And calling you that, he did call you the t-word?, should be followed with an apology. Sorry, he called douglas that, which means there is some sexual confusion going on on confudeforeigner's part. And he should still follow up with an apology for the word. Women really don't like that word bandied about, Confudeforeigner. Or is it a term of endearment in Australia?

 
At 5:40 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

Nope, sorry, I stick by the racialist and anti-semitic use of "neo-con". well if you insist but i haven't a clue what you mean - honest

 
At 5:45 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

neoneoconned said...
1. Football (soccer if you must) is the best game in the world.


That's it. I've got NO respect for you now. What a stupid game. The neocons must be right about Iraq then.

Fock?

Afghanistan is a serious fork-up still though?

 
At 5:53 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

And calling you that, he did call you the t-word?, should be followed with an apology. Sorry, he called douglas that, which means there is some sexual confusion going on on confudeforeigner's part. And he should still follow up with an apology for the word. Women really don't like that word bandied about, Confudeforeigner. Or is it a term of endearment in Australia?

6:40 AM, June 13, 2006
\

What?

 
At 5:55 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

And calling you that, he did call you the t-word?, should be followed with an apology. Sorry, he called douglas that, which means there is some sexual confusion going on on confudeforeigner's part. And he should still follow up with an apology for the word. Women really don't like that word bandied about, Confudeforeigner. Or is it a term of endearment in Australia?

6:40 AM, June 13, 2006
\

What?

 
At 5:56 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Okay, Ariel. Both trolls are irritants, certainly, but I think it's also fairly clear that both are, yes, enemies -- of this blog, and, as I tried to explain, of reason and communication (here at least) itself. Playing with them just makes you their ally, however unwitting. Just my opinion, and this is just my hope: that your judgment improves after some sleep.

 
At 6:06 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh Sally sweetie. Trying to make cowardice a virtue. Tsk Tsk.

 
At 6:08 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ariel said...

Confudeforeigner,

No, I was writing that I wasn't calling you a racist or anti-semite. Your implied syllogism is fine, but you misunderstood what I was writing. Totally. Of course a "neo-con" can be a racist, so can the paperboy. Or a Democrat. I hope "Daily Kos" doesn't link that comment, I'm not up to the abuse.

Because some of the founders of the "neo-con" movement, whatever the heck that means, were Jewish, racists in my country began using it as a codeword for "Jew" (racist meaning), "zionist" was an earlier codeword (again racist meaning), as in world conspiracy, Jewish Bankers, Protocols of the Elders of Zion (thank you tsarists), the usual tripe. Which is why I wrote the two sentences on listening closely to know if you have a racist or not.

You didn't like the Shakespearian "Weltanschaung"? My best work goes unnoticed.

As for Rugby, yeah I could believe that. I still would maintain that the training doesn't cross well. Rugby is stamina and power, Football is almost all power, little stamina. The "techniques" of play are vastly different in emphasis. Boy am I going to make some people mad with that.

Finally, I am so glad that thug Zarqawi is dead, and yes it does matter. Can I go home now?

 
At 6:26 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

OK Ariel,this is where we cut to the chase, if you're ready. Wolfowitz et al are proudly and overtly amoral and zionist at the same time.

You see where this goes?

 
At 7:21 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Sally said....Let me explain a little more of what I mean by that, and something about troll behavior of which you seem unaware. Trolls are labelled.........


,,,,zzzzzzzzzZZzzzzZZzzzzzwhat?

 
At 8:40 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Wonder how Ymar would go against me?

I don't play fair. I prefer pre-game assassinations to 1 on 1 confrontations. We could have easily killed the Iranian top players with Predator B UAVs, but we didn't, even though USA lost to Iran. That's cause USA plays fair, I don't however.

As for trolls and policy about them. Neo won't in fact ban or delete their posts, unless certain criteria are met by commentators, so what she does do is ask us not to engage them. Except, psychologically that is not possible 100% of the time. You can ignore it for days, but you will eventually want to say something, and then you become embroiled in here or then. Now, since there are like 10 commenters here who are regulars, if we all ignore the trolls for a segment of time and fail at specific instants, we will still have 24 hour coverage. Basically confud and Conned has 12 hours of the day, and we have the other 12 hours of the day since we're in America and Confud is in New Zealand/AustrAsia, to make comments with.

To totally ignore the trolls, I would have to stop reading the comments section on this site. Which I suppose, is one way the people who came here to play around with people's mental states can claim victory.

Boy am I going to make some people mad with that.

Only crazy Fussball fans, Ariel.

Confude regularly posts 3 comments at a time, just because he doesn't like to tidy up his writing material and thoughts. Everything is heavily placed upon the rest of us, in terms of weight and responsibility. There is no personal responsibility Confud takes for anything.

You can't have an argument with someone who is here to do character assassination. You can have a fight I think, then a time to heal up, but eventually another fight will start some when and some time.

Reminds me of Europe's wars.

A lot of people don't prefer to go into a social setting and mouth off about their opinions in front of everyone until the audience applauds them for their audacity and genius. The internet removes this inhibition, to an extent. But most people just can't act like Confud acts here, naturally, either in a social setting or an internet setting.

Do they have nothing better to do? If they want debates, there are debate forums like at the "Great Debates" discussion panels.

Ariel hasn't been here for the weeks in which we had to read/skip/read/skip/read about the various abuses and harassments that has been going on here.

Spank, for example, was just picking on me cause I pushed his buttons. He was quite reasonable when talking about other people, and other people tended to not push his buttons. Confud here acts like Spank only in that Confud takes a few posts until you talk about Palestinians, in which he then explodes. With Spank, it was far less predictable what set him off, and he'd always pick on me, Ymar, and leave everyone else alone for some reason.

Confud doesn't just single me out, he singles everyone here that disagrees with him out with the same conduct. This produces frission and conflict, fit for a war environment, but not a forum for intellectual discussion.

There was this Elvis character that posted with a write in name, that wrote about the rules of neo-cons. Neo Neo Conned could be Elvis, I wouldn't know, but the tone of Elvis' initial comments were far more horrendous than the half way reasonable tone of Conned's recent posts on this thread. At times I have difficulty separating Conned and Confud.

 
At 10:24 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Confud:

It is not America's presence in the ME or its support for Israel that is responsible for the shoot-out yesterday in Ramallah.

It is not Israel's "racism", "ethnic cleansing" (boy are you off base there) or "occupation" that's responsible for Palestinian internecine strife.

And you can discount the truth as much as you like, but it does not negate the truth. The truth is, that much of what passes for "Palestinian oppression" is manufactured for foolish useful idiots like you, who will believe anything, as long as it casts Israel or America in a bad light.

But the truth remains:

"So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people...greedy, barbarous and cruel."

 
At 1:55 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

The truth Stumbley is there for you to see. You can manufacture myths all you like but the truth is that the Palestinians were pushed off their land and Israel has been expanding ever since.

That is obvious fact.

For you to maintain denial in the face of such facts says .......I don't know.

 
At 2:29 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger stumbley said...

Umm...

Sanity?

Good judgement?

The ability to see through leftist dogma and Islamic propaganda?

 
At 4:00 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

The Palestinian struggle had nought to do with Islam until quite recently and I doubt whether it does much now.

Arabs are notoriously bad at propaganda and PR and it amazes me that you think that everything revolves around propaganda.

The issues are real. They were pushed out of their homes and continue to be. They live under military occupation. They don't have any sort of nation and are not being offered any sort of nation. Kids were slaughtered on the beach by Israeli artillery shells. There have been dozens of massacres by Israeli troops. There have been suicide attacks by Israelis. Israel has ignored every single UN resolution. Israel has attacked and occupied every one of its neighbours. Israel regularly shells refugee camps and has shelled a UN peacekeeping force. Israel is a nuclear armed state in breach of international law. The US gives Israel billions of dollars every year.

Where is the propaganda in that? They are basic undeniable facts.

 
At 11:16 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

This is where having people who know what they are talking about are worth their weight in gold.

 

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