Saturday, June 10, 2006

Why Zarqawi's death matters

Despite the chorus of "yes, buts..." on the left that, although Zarqawi was indeed a nasty man who deserved to die, his death will only serve as the inspiration for more terror and was therefore not such a great event, there is evidence cropping up that the positive repercussions of his demise (and the manner of it) could go far beyond the simple fact that he is no longer around to personally perpetrate graphic evil.

Claudia Rossett has laid out the possible/probable international ramifications of his death: the importance of a command leader being taken out of commission, the significance of the fact that it was cooperating Iraqis who were part of the reason he got caught, and the intelligence information that was gained and has resulted already in a plethora of arrests.

The whole event can have a cascading effect, both emotional and practical. Zarqawi traded on his image as not only an excessively brutal man but as one who cannily eluded capture, operating under the noses of the US and Iraqis. His myth of invincibility and power is shattered. But perhaps even more important is the fact that information gathered as a result of locating his whereabouts has led to what is perhaps the largest cleanup operation of terrorists ever:

In Iraq alone, some 16 or 17 terror cells were attacked at the same time as Zarqawi was killed. And the wave of arrests — just yesterday the Swiss reported they had broken up a cell planning to attack an El Al passenger plane — is like nothing I have seen before, bespeaking an encouraging degree of international cooperation. It goes hand in hand with the devastating campaign in Iraq against the terrorist leadership. Zarqawi is just the latest to fall; most of his top associates had been eliminated over the course of the past several months.

Even the Washington Post seems to agree that Zarqawi's death may indeed have dealt a major tactical as well as propaganda blow to Al Qaeda and to terror around the world:

It is unclear which of 39-year-old Zarqawi's lieutenants, or deputy emirs, will attempt to fill his role. But whoever succeeds him will be hard-pressed to achieve the same level of notoriety or to unite the foreign fighters in Iraq under a single command, analysts said.

Some European and Arab intelligence officials said they had seen signs before Zarqawi's death that the number of foreign fighters going to Iraq was already waning. For recruitment efforts, the importance of Zarqawi's death "cannot be overestimated," Germany's foreign intelligence chief, Ernst Uhrlau, told the Berlin newspaper Der Tagesspiegel.


Of course, the killings in Iraq continue, as expected. But although they are still full of sound and fury and personal tragedy to these they directly effect, they may indeed signify less than they used to. New recruits to the jihadi cause seem to have few of the skills of the old ones, according to this AP report.

And this is no accident. The days of the training camps in Afghanistan are gone, many of that generation wiped out. It may be getting a great deal more difficult to recruit "quality" people, not to mention keeping them. High turnover is always a serious personnel problem.

Yes, we don't know what the future will bring. But the signs right now are good, and we should be heartened by the fruits of the incredible effort mounted by our military, worldwide intelligence, and the Iraqi people.

[ADDENDUM: Zarqawi's body may not be all that welcome in his country of origin, Jordan, since he enraged a few people there a while back.]

55 Comments:

At 3:19 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

you hope

 
At 3:32 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Pastorius said...

No one is happier about the assassination of Zarqawi than I.

But, we need to face facts.

Terrorists may not have training camps in Afghanistan now, but Somalia was just taken back by the Islamists, and Sudan and Nigeria are Islamist hotspots as well.

And then, there is Iran.

I fear we have not yet seen the worst of our War on Terror.

 
At 3:59 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

"Kill one terrorist, and two terrorists rise in his place..."

or something like that. This is a comment, as best I can figure, on the culture of shame and honor. To wit: it matters not whether the kill was righteous, or unrighteous, but only whether our honor is at stake, and whether shame is upon us as a result of the kill.

I will only say this, which I first remember reading from Stephen Den Beste, and from Wretchard:
The WOT is Islam's last, best chance. If the WOT doesn't succeed, Islam, as it is currently constituted, will be almost wiped out.

If it is true that, for a large enough population of Muslims, shame will always matter more than righteousness, then Islam is probably doomed to be wiped out by nukes. Left-side "progressives" - when they say there is no hope of overcoming the cultural shame cycle of retribution, and of "two replace the one who has fallen" - are unknowingly advocating the violent destruction of Islam. This is a rather harsh prescription. To me, President Bush's WOT is actually a "progressive", and creative, attempt to stave off the violent destruction of the religion. The left side "progressives", whether they know it or not, are advocating a stone-age solution: violently wipe out one's enemies, ASAP.

 
At 4:08 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

I'm willing to take a chance that there are a large numbers of Muslims who understand the righteousness, and the fairness, of killing Zarqawi type fighters. I've never believed there is an inexhaustible supply of young men willing to martyr themselves against America, and against Western concepts such as free will, and democracy. I'm willing to gamble that there is not an inexhaustible supply of such men, and that, as the good guys kill the bad guys, the bucket of bad guys is slowly emptying, rather than filling. I could be wrong. But I'm an optimist. It seems the humane thing to be. The truth will out. Good will prevail in the end. To believe in an inexhaustible supply of martyrs is to believe that false propaganda will always trump truth and righteousness. Always. I don't believe that. The truth will out. Potentially violent young men will come over to the side of truth and righteousness, in greater numbers than the numbers of those who go the other way. I'm willing to take that chance, and to risk my grandchildren's lives on the truth of it.

 
At 4:14 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

Which is another reason Zarqawi's death matters. It is an example, to millions of young Muslims, of righteous action. We could've taken out a large area of the city. We took out one house in our attack on a very important enemy leader. At some level, the continual humanity and righteousness of our actions has to register with some persons. Zarqawi's death is another example of that.

 
At 6:27 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

zman's death matters because it is fun killing terroists and murderers. Child killer included with the batteries.

 
At 9:29 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Huan said...

once again the left tries to resurrect the ghosts of Vietnam. Once again they are trying via the media to snatch defeat from the mouth of victory.

pathetic.

 
At 9:47 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger SlantRight 2.0 said...

The points about Somalia and Iran being new training may or may not have validity. Iran is Shi'ite. Iran may sympathize with Al Qaeda and Palestinians, but they will only train the the Shi'ite way.

Somalian Islamists have defeated Somalian warlords and wish to establish an Islamofascist Sharia, however they have hinted at relations with America. That could not happen as a training ground for Al Qaeda.

The last training ground is probably the Sudan.

The view that the noose is ever so slowly yet consistently tightening around the neck of Islamofasicist terrorists outside of Palestine is probably a truer view.

 
At 10:18 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger chuck said...

One thing that seems left out of the analyses I have seen is the effect on finances of Zarqawi's death. Many of the bombings are carried out by hired help looking for an easy buck. I expect that the Zarqawi mystique helped raised funds and that many of the top lieutenants were conduits for cash. Money, of course, is infinitely fungible and I expect the flows from Syria and Iran to be reestablished at some point, but it will take time.

This thing isn't getting any better and I don't see any "last throes" anywhere in sight.

At some point the Shia might just wipe out the Sunni. After all, the army is growing apace in size and competence and the Sunni are only some 18% of the country, nor do they have the oil resources: those lie in the Kurdish and Shia areas. There is a reason a Sunni was put in charge of the Iraqi army in the political settlement. If the settlement truly comes undone I expect to see a change in army leadership to be one of the first things to follow.

 
At 10:31 PM, June 10, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Let's face facts. Iraq is going to be a mess for a very long time.

That's what is known as an opinion, charitably called a prediction. The first step is always to get to know what are facts, before saying what facts are or are not.

 
At 12:32 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

"Let's face facts. Iraq is going to be a mess for a very long time.

That's what is known as an opinion, charitably called a prediction. The first step is always to get to know what are facts, before saying what facts are or are not."

Y, LOL when you compare it with this quote...

"Removing Zarqawi is a major blow to al Qaeda. It's not going to end the war. And it's certainly not going to end the violence. But it's going to help a lot."
Quote obtained from MSNNews
ROFL!!

 
At 2:00 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger druidbros said...

It will matter but not very much. Zarkawi's group accounted for about 10% of the insurgency in Iraq.

And dont forget the reason we are there is for the oil. Thats why Congress removed the language prohibiting perminabt bases in Iraq this week fromthe appropriations bill.

 
At 3:48 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

you hope

Whereas the trolls hope NOT.
rubbish sally. Try reading my comments on here and try to think beyond you are either for or against us. Iraq is a BIG mistake. I do want to see it end in some kind of democratic peace not in yet more chaos.

You find it hard to understand that constant military action produces more chaos. Yrmadwnker celebrates very "terrorist" death, so does bin laden. Can you think why?

 
At 5:31 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Spaghetti Monster said...

As long as Guantanamo bay is open and the people there are left in concentration campe-sque limbo, the Muslim World will forever be against America, as it sees it as being duplicitous. That issue is a lot more painful to many Muslims than the killing of an extremist. If it closed, America could say it is waging war on terror with hand on heart. At the moment, its promises of democracy and free justice ring a little hollow

 
At 8:24 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger troutsky said...

How much will it cost to bring democracy to Somalia? Do they have any oil? Do they threaten Israel? It will be a tough slog but as long as I can sit here and eat Cheetos while watching other people die it will be worth it.

 
At 8:44 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I wish I could terminate all those who support terrorism and all who are ignorant of its effects, but that power is not within my purview.

 
At 8:52 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

The reason being is that Confud and Conned's pro-terroist comments are again exceeding the limit of human decency.

Probligo now chooses to join the fray because now that he has found allies that are as morally and intellectually similar to him, he can come out from the woodworks ala Tet.

The amount of arrogance and close minded laughter that procedes from this abundance of morality and ethical conduct, would be enough to fill the orbits of mars and jupiter combined if expanded to a different metaphysical construct.

 
At 9:42 AM, June 11, 2006, Blogger snowonpine said...

I recently saw a news item which had U.S. military sources estimating that 50,000 terrorists had been killed so far in Iraq. Don't remember the source and it doesn't really matter. The point is that thousands of deluded jihadis have been flooding into Iraq to take the place of the old jihadis, who we're killing in wholesale lots.

Because our military is chewing up jihadis at such a ferocious rate, I do think that the general level of skill of the terrorists is likely to decline. Add to this our recent successes in killing many senior terrorist leaders culminating in Z-man' death and I think these developments are going to discourage the smarter of the potential jihadis from volunteering.

However, another news item, which estimated that there were thousands of madrasses, just in Pakistan alone, which were churning out jihadis illustrates that we have to work on both ends of this issue. It solves nothing if we kill 50,000 jihadis, if there are other hundreds of thousands in training. We have to change the mindset that allows, nay glories, in the teachings of these largely Wahabi madrassas.

 
At 1:56 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

If we take out Pakistan, we can checkmate Iran.

 
At 2:55 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

If we take out Pakistan, we can checkmate Iran. it is not a game stupid! If you 'take out' Pakistan you had better buy a lot of body bags. God you are so brave with othe rpeople's lives.

oh and remember

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.

 
At 3:12 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Chess isn't a game. It's a way to teach people how to think logically, how to recognize the consequences of doing something without thinking about it, and how to avoid mistakes by learning from them.

 
At 3:19 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

look sonny I have played chess since before you were born and it is a game. With limited parameters and very clear rules.

Invading or blowing up countries is not a game and real people get killed, parts of their body blown off and their sanity damaged. When you can sort out the difference between the real world and a game you might start to be a thinking man.

The problem you, and neo, and many others on here have is that you are all too willing to advocate violence without having the consequences too close to hand. Violence often causes more violence - like it or not this is true. It is not often that we can say "check mate" in this kind of situation.

 
At 3:20 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Cappy said...

...Still celebrating...

 
At 3:29 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

It is interesting to contemplate what drives young muslims to martyr themselves in a foreign country whose residents despise them. Yes, probably 90% or more Iraqis despise the jihadis passionately. Even Sunni insurgent Iraqis despise the foreign jihadi. They will take time off from killing americans to kill the jihadis. Like sport.

Interesting link, neo. Try this one if neo's link does not work, courtesy of Tim Blair.

There are those who cheer on the jihadis, who thrive on the blood shed of infidels and martyrs and innocents. Some of them are trolls at various blogsites.

 
At 3:36 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh yeah, *big yawn*
if you oppose the war in Iraq you are a supporter of terrorists - if you try to explain the origins of terrorism you are a supporter of terrorists - if you try to explain the motives of people who blow themselves up you are a supporter of terrorists.

change the record!

The killing of civilians is evil!

The encouragement of young people to blow themselves up is wrong!

Bin laden is a right twat!

So why do you think young palestinians blow themselves up?

are they stupid?

Brainwashed?

Possessed by demons?

Or making rational choices in irrational circuumstances?

come on then sally, al, yrmdwnkr, little apple thief, neo, comrade wasp, let us see you try to explain a few things in the world rather than suggesting how best to blow them up.

 
At 4:08 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

and while we are at it who wants a bet that neo tries to explain this mess away in her next post? Bet she blames the prisoners and can't see that illegal imprisonment just makes things worse. Bet saying this gets me called a defender of terrorism. Bet yrmdwnkr says they should all just be shot...or that shooting is too good por them.

 
At 4:53 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Courtesy of Conned, I was able to learn much more about the IRA Troubles that Britain had. I think it has some very relevant portions related to the terror we face in Iraq. But it is a very unorthodox interpretation.

Ira terror, to defend against British sponsored Ulster death squads

I'm sorry to inform people, but the same skills that Xbox gamers acquire is the same skills pilots use to fly Predator B UAVs in to destroy targets with hellfire missiles.

The training simulators can be considered games, but it would be wrong to see a productive activity as a game, a game defined as a waste of time which prioritizes frivolous activies. Chess is not a game, I use it as a productive activity to train my ability to read people, predict their thinking, and react with appropriate counters. Chess is a game to COnned, because Conned sees anything productive that avoids the killing of civilians as being a frivolous activity. The only serious activities to Conned, is when people are dieing. For example, this righteous smashing of neo-cons is a game to Conned. This arguing on the internet, is a game to Conned. The rhetorical supporting of terroists, is a game to Conned, because Conned isn't killing anyone directly.

Pardon me, while I don't act in the heinous and sadistically insensitive manner as Conned.

Bet yrmdwnkr says they should all just be shot...or that shooting is too good por them.

I'm humane. Those who have cooperated with the US authorities, those who have been poisoned by US decadence, those can keep their lives. Everyon else, benefits from "assisted involuntary suicide". I hear that is very popular in the Netherlands, very "tolerant and humane". Shame on Conned for acting in such a manner, as to deny the basic human right of a prisoner to assisted suicide.

For those who are still reading, and not taking a vacation from the divisive, ridicule based, and extremely uncomfortable environment that Confud and Conned has created here, please, go to my blog and read about the IRA. It might distract you just enough, to realize that there truly are different and interesting positions on substantial matters that you might care to read, and perhaps even, engage with.

Or, youcan do as I recommended to stumb and doug (one or the other anyway), and go read blackfive's comments section when Z Man died. It'll make you feel much better.

 
At 5:56 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

This is an interesting article about the US 101st Airborne Infantry in and around Ramadi, Iraq. It is from an embedded reporter who wanted to go to the meanest area of operations.

He makes an interesting point about the reporters from the BBC, Guardian, NY Times, CNN, etc. who hide in their hotel rooms while relying on Iraqi stringers to get the stories for them. "News? What news? I'm drunk under my hotel bed most all the time."

 
At 6:04 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 6:13 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

This is an interesting article about the reporting of news from Iraq and the way in which 'embedded' reporters can only give a partial view of the war, yet to try and report in other ways is dangerous and difficult.

He doesn't make childish and unsubstantiated points that rival reporters from the BBC, Guardian, NY Times, CNN, etc. who hide in their hotel rooms while relying on Iraqi stringers to get the stories for them. "News? What news? I'm drunk under my hotel bed most all the time." (and if you follow al fin's link to the article it isnt quite so simplistic but what the hell)

but argues

Failure to be open about the difficulties we face in reporting Iraq comprehensively - as independent "non-embedded" journalists - will cause us further damage still.

same old neo-cons MSM is unfair ....oh unless it prints what you want to hear.

 
At 6:27 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

All conservatives believe the MSM is very fair, to those whose side they are on.

Obviously since we are their enemies and America as a whole is something they must supplant with something less evil, like the EU or the UN, we are treated in a very unfair way.

But that doesn't mean the world media is "unfair" de facto. The complexity of this situation deserves more than just childish food fights.

 
At 10:06 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger goesh said...

I see a few are still reading the Wog lovers (trolls) posts, but the numbers are dwindling. I sort of scratched my head when I read the title of this one, but then we all still will take the bait of the Left at times and feel a need to respond. What a day in our affairs when we feel we must explain why taking a mad dog, mass murderer off the streets is a good thing. i.e. why it matters. How about, "Why taking Ted Bundy off the streets mattered" for a follow-up? Killing zaqawri will draw terrorists in by the droves for revenge purposes - the suckers won't be able to resist the chance to engage and show the world they still have some punch. Ohhhhh! lock n' load, baby. Iraq is no longer a piece of fly paper, it is a fu***** magnet! There is no telling the number of Special Ops lads from other countries that are begging and vying to get a piece of the action and get some live-fire time in. And mercenaries? The hapless Left doesn't have a clue of what is really going on in Iraq, and I'm not talking Western mercenaries either. Professionals from all over the world are on hand, in limited number of course, including Muslims, to get some serious cash for hunting and killing jihadis. The stupid Left actually thinks jihadis just drop the quran and pick up an AK and presto! you have an instant, trained, seasoned, experienced, blooded guerilla. Unbelievable! I mean Lefties are some real dip-shits. It's the cadre commanders, the NCOs if you will, that count in their ranks, the boys that have been blooded in Chechnyna, Kasmir, Afghanistan, Beirut, Gaza and the Bekkah Valley, etc. that have led men in fire fights and can organize and give orders - for every one of them we can kill, a couple dozen of their 'troopers' will sacrifice their lives blindly in response. 1500+ in Fallujah alone and another big push is coming up in Ramadi and I got a crisp 50$ says the number will be even higher than Fallujah. Common sense said it would be this way, that they would come by the thousands and thousands to die. Doesn't anyone remember the tapes of the initial invasion and the vehicles that would come charging across fields towards our forces? Hello? Duh! Anyone home in Leftyville?? A truck load of jihadis with machine guns and allah in the passenger seat and they came rushing at our tanks and died like swine, or at least like fish in a barrel. That's why z's deah matters - it will greatly accelerate the major depletion of trained, experienced cadre commanders from all over the world. Why do you think the borders are left so porous? What? You don't think we had the manpower to put say 50K troops on the borders in Iraq as well as the 130K inside iraq? The Left's tactical analysis and insight is like the Sunday comics. By the way, where were the human shields? I thought they would be protecting zaqawri with life and limb.....

 
At 10:35 PM, June 11, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Z Man's women LTs were the human shields he was depending upon to protect him. A jihadi man, relying upon his women to shield him, pathetic.

 
At 12:16 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Since Ymar, Sally, and Wasp all have unique and distinct voices, that goes as follows that there be natural competition.

 
At 1:20 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Ohhhhh! lock n' load, baby. Iraq is no longer a piece of fly paper, it is a fu***** magnet!

....woah this place is getting seriously disturbed. What a bunch of wannabe psychopaths you have collected here neo.

Wonder which one will be first to be found going mad in a mall with an automatic weapon? My money is on comrade wasp. Living out a counter insurgency fantasy in his head, while barking out orders at the hapless shoppers, who look blankly at him, which he treats as treachery....and he shoots.

Oh my you have some quality lunatics in the USA. Good job that the overwhelming majority reject all this childish and very simplistic violent neocon nonsense, recognise that the mess in Iraq is going to have be stopped and soon, and even President Bush thinks it is time to negotiate.

....meanwhile on a laptop near yrdwnkr..

"pow, zap, kersmash, 'your dead', no I ain't 'cos this sweater is bullet proof, magic, given to me by the fairies...."

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.



yeah right yrmdwnkr

 
At 5:13 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Roosevelt didn't decide anything for us, well except for going into a foreign war that is when he said he wouldn't.

 
At 5:21 AM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Ace tells why he loves Z-Man's death, and hates sponsors of terroists

 
At 12:39 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

neo con blog, some right wingers like David Duke is okay, for the left, if they villify America. Which Duke does do.

I always say, the political spectrum is a globe. If you go far enough left, you'll hit the far right.

 
At 12:40 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Don't forget, Iraq the model, is the very model of a modern cia plant.

 
At 1:35 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Again, reading the comments here causes conned and confud so much pain; do you suppose they're masochists at heart? No other explanation, somehow.
Well try a bit of imagination....why would they bother? Ah well have to fall back on the old neo on catch all explanation for the behaviour of other people....they must be nuts!. or trolls!

tried to get my head round that link...found this This is a war between all the good and all the evil.
yeah well that was the point when i thought who cares if it is a right or left wing blog it is a simplistic one, and not very informative.

 
At 2:20 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Ymar:

Not likely.


Oh come on man, don't be a neo con. You know it be the absolute truth.

but believe the blog (which I've seen before) which is blatant childlike propaganda with little semblance of truth or integrity,

See, even Confud agrees with me that it be a neo-con plant. Don't be cruddy, you know it is true. Come on, repeat it, you know it is true!!

 
At 3:42 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Stumb, you can't expect Confud just to take the NYT's word for it, he has to have neutrality and concise judgement here. Just believing something cause it is in print, Confud is not going to be bought into by that. Only neo-cons are bought in by the printed word on Faux News.

 
At 3:59 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

whats to celebrate about palestinians shooting each other? more mayhem? more death? why not think what might create peace?

USA team needed a bit more guile if they were going to beat the czechs. Not a bad game though.

 
At 4:38 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

well i was being kind.

The point is to encourage the moderates, the democrats the practical people who are willing to cut a deal. Pretty it is not but practical it is. How people wish that secular Islam with all its socialist tendencies had received a bit more support from the west as we never really uderstood that something worse was waiting in the wings.

i honestly believe that if we could defuse Israel-Palestine it would be a start to solving some of the others. And every time I read of more violence and confrontation there i despair of a solution ever being reached - just endless violence, counter-violence, counter counter-violence etc.

I would hope that none of us would revel in the existence of this violence as it is just more misery for the many ordinary people who are just trying to get by in these places.

Ariel all that strawman stuff gets thrown at everybody on these blogs and is seriously a waste of time. Everbody says that evrybody else is arguing to th eperson, fanatical etc etc.

If you wanna argue just go for it.

You have to accept that it is not a neat and tidy debate - I think the very format of blogs precludes this. Also sometimes it is fun to mock your opponents, try to trip them up, get them to contradict themselves. We all do it. Some more sucessfully than others. Personally i found the whole "you are not arguing properly" line of debate a bit futile and would rather be called an idiot or laughed at.

...but then i am just a troll :-)

 
At 4:43 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Anyone getting my point? Or am I just pissing in the wind? Am I standing upwind or downwind...

On a general sense, yes. Considering the lack of names, and examples, I can only understand it from a general perspective.

My arguments with cak(reiz) and mary and others, stand in contrast with Conned depiction that "everything is like that, so it is okay to misbehave and act out like" Conned does.

 
At 4:47 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

hmmm dead logical

It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.

 
At 7:32 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Hey stumb, do you want me to tell these people that Hamas setup that little beach party themselves or should you?

 
At 8:22 PM, June 12, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Well, they won't believe that Z-Man died and this will shatter his organization either, but it's still true.

 
At 1:54 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

hmm well maybe it is in the Israeli's interests to do just that. Read this accountfrom the Jerusalem Post of the beach 'incident'. Now it does seem reasonably clear that the IDF were responsible and also that each of these incidents is preceded and proceeded by another. Read the depressing acount of who did what to whom. One bloody incident after another..

Only by breaking this cycle will things be changed. Or do you think it is possible to "defeat" the Palestinians? And if so how? By killing all of them?

I do find it interesting that while you are so sceptical of the MSM you are willing to trawl the blogs to find anything that props up your world view of the IDF as pure as driven snow. They are not. Like many military organisations involved in violence innocent people get killed.

and don't forget this mess is one of the key driving forces behind many other aspects of terrorism.


....and did comrade wasp say what i thought he said?

 
At 3:14 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"Indecent leftists, on the other hand -- e.g., our Bobbsey Twin trolls here -- have a perverse or at least adolescent fascination with the very badness of the terrorists, and a wish to believe in their invulnerability. Hence the notion that fighting them makes them, in some mystical way, stronger. Or so they'd like to believe."

Sally, don't remind us they are trolls, and say 'don't feed them' then bait them with a half truth like this...

 
At 3:59 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"If you wanna argue just go for it.

You have to accept that it is not a neat and tidy debate - I think the very format of blogs precludes this. Also sometimes it is fun to mock your opponents, try to trip them up, get them to contradict themselves. We all do it. Some more sucessfully than others. Personally i found the whole "you are not arguing properly" line of debate a bit futile and would rather be called an idiot or laughed at."


Right. There is no need or place for civility, or for honor, or silly antiquated concepts of that sort. Politeness has it's place, as does coarseness, but where there is a sense of propriety, one should be reticent to introduce a crass atmosphere needlessly. I don't like to see posters who have been polite and proper start using profanity and tossing insults when I know they didn't do it before it became common here recently, so this applies to all. 'What the hay, at least it's fun'. Fun can get you in a heap of trouble, and while I'm all for it, seeing it as justification for anything is a bit adolescent, isn't it?

If you like this as 'sport' you've got a blogger account within which you can create an arena and rules (or lack thereof) to your liking. Coming into someone elses arena and ignoring their rules is at the least rude, and certainly disrespectful. In some cultures, disrespect is taken rather seriously, would you exhibit such behavior there? When I went to Turkey, I dressed appropriately in going to Mosques or other holy places. According to your rules, I'm not Muslim, why should I have bothered taking off my shoes?

"...but then i am just a troll :-)"

Sometimes, sometimes not. At leasts you're far more honest than our friend in Oz, for whom this is all just sport.

 
At 5:03 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

1. Football (soccer if you must) is the best game in the world.

2. I troll when debate turns into abuse. Comrade wasp and Sally get trolled because they are dismissive and often offensive. I debate with those who wish to debate. As, I think Douglas said, where is the fun in arguing with those you agree with? No fun. I am all for arguing, gently mocking, or outright rowing with whoever. If you ever don't like what I say tell me. As forComing into someone elses arena and ignoring their rules is at the least rude, and certainly disrespectful. I think neo's rules are. 1. No swearing or profanity (unless it is genuinely funny) 2. No being horrible about neo because neo does not do debate. Have I missed any?

3. Ariel I really don't get the point about the Aryan nation. Just because I think there should be justice for the Palestinians does not mean I have to support every lunatic group using the issue for their own ends.

 
At 5:40 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Nope, sorry, I stick by the racialist and anti-semitic use of "neo-con". well if you insist but i haven't a clue what you mean - honest

 
At 8:40 AM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Wonder how Ymar would go against me?

I don't play fair. I prefer pre-game assassinations to 1 on 1 confrontations. We could have easily killed the Iranian top players with Predator B UAVs, but we didn't, even though USA lost to Iran. That's cause USA plays fair, I don't however.

As for trolls and policy about them. Neo won't in fact ban or delete their posts, unless certain criteria are met by commentators, so what she does do is ask us not to engage them. Except, psychologically that is not possible 100% of the time. You can ignore it for days, but you will eventually want to say something, and then you become embroiled in here or then. Now, since there are like 10 commenters here who are regulars, if we all ignore the trolls for a segment of time and fail at specific instants, we will still have 24 hour coverage. Basically confud and Conned has 12 hours of the day, and we have the other 12 hours of the day since we're in America and Confud is in New Zealand/AustrAsia, to make comments with.

To totally ignore the trolls, I would have to stop reading the comments section on this site. Which I suppose, is one way the people who came here to play around with people's mental states can claim victory.

Boy am I going to make some people mad with that.

Only crazy Fussball fans, Ariel.

Confude regularly posts 3 comments at a time, just because he doesn't like to tidy up his writing material and thoughts. Everything is heavily placed upon the rest of us, in terms of weight and responsibility. There is no personal responsibility Confud takes for anything.

You can't have an argument with someone who is here to do character assassination. You can have a fight I think, then a time to heal up, but eventually another fight will start some when and some time.

Reminds me of Europe's wars.

A lot of people don't prefer to go into a social setting and mouth off about their opinions in front of everyone until the audience applauds them for their audacity and genius. The internet removes this inhibition, to an extent. But most people just can't act like Confud acts here, naturally, either in a social setting or an internet setting.

Do they have nothing better to do? If they want debates, there are debate forums like at the "Great Debates" discussion panels.

Ariel hasn't been here for the weeks in which we had to read/skip/read/skip/read about the various abuses and harassments that has been going on here.

Spank, for example, was just picking on me cause I pushed his buttons. He was quite reasonable when talking about other people, and other people tended to not push his buttons. Confud here acts like Spank only in that Confud takes a few posts until you talk about Palestinians, in which he then explodes. With Spank, it was far less predictable what set him off, and he'd always pick on me, Ymar, and leave everyone else alone for some reason.

Confud doesn't just single me out, he singles everyone here that disagrees with him out with the same conduct. This produces frission and conflict, fit for a war environment, but not a forum for intellectual discussion.

There was this Elvis character that posted with a write in name, that wrote about the rules of neo-cons. Neo Neo Conned could be Elvis, I wouldn't know, but the tone of Elvis' initial comments were far more horrendous than the half way reasonable tone of Conned's recent posts on this thread. At times I have difficulty separating Conned and Confud.

 
At 11:16 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

This is where having people who know what they are talking about are worth their weight in gold.

 

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