Friday, May 19, 2006

New dress code may go into effect in Iran

Iran may be about to revive an old custom. A law passed by the Iranian parliament needs only the approval of "Supreme Guide" Ali Khamenehi to become practice.

It actually was passed two years ago, but languished until recently "revived at the behest of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad." What a surprise.

Here's the gist of it:

Iran's roughly 25,000 Jews would have to sew a yellow strip of cloth on the front of their clothes, while Christians would wear red badges and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear blue cloth.

Oh well, there are so few of them left in Iran, anyway. But it wasn't always that way.

See this, this, and this.

[NOTE: Allahpundit cautions that the story may not be true.

And here's more on the confusion.

Still more evidence that this is likely to be false.]

269 Comments:

At 4:12 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Though desired by purist Jihadist factions -- they may not do it. It would potentially alienate their European and Leftist allies as just being TOOOOO over the top, ...at least I’m optimistic.

Yet it might spawn some much desired infighting [Girondins and Jacobin]

 
At 4:14 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Epaminondas said...

I'm going with Amir Taheri on this one, and accepting it until I see otherwise
..................................

" While the Iranian economy appears to be heading for recession, one sector may have some reason for optimism. That sector is the garment industry and the reason for hopefulness is a law passed by the Islamic Majlis (parliament) on Monday.

The law mandates the government to make sure that all Iranians wear “standard Islamic garments” designed to remove ethnic and class distinctions reflected in clothing, and to eliminate “the influence of the infidel” on the way Iranians, especially, the young dress. It also envisages separate dress codes for religious minorities, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, who will have to adopt distinct colour schemes to make them identifiable in public. The new codes would enable Muslims to easily recognize non-Muslims so that they can avoid shaking hands with them by mistake, and thus becoming najis (unclean).

The new law, drafted during the presidency of Muhammad Khatami in 2004, had been blocked within the Majlis. That blockage, however, has been removed under pressure from Khatami’s successor, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."
.................................
It's so absurd we still have a residue of hope in the humanity of the Hojjatieh?

Like a residue of hope for the nation of Kant?

 
At 6:51 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Somebody's setting up for a purge.

 
At 8:16 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

It maybe in the process of being squashed.

 
At 8:17 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

This nonsense seems to go around on a regular and monotonous rotation, just with the names and dates changed to suit the agenda of the proponent. It has no relationship with any fact. It is an old furphy (a red herring if you will) disseminated by the ultra right zionist lunatic fringe. Shame on you for reproducing it here.
What next? Mobile biological weapons labs able to deliver their warheads in 45 minutes, anyone?

 
At 8:25 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

ultra right zionist lunatic fringe

Watch out, here comes another open minded fake liberal!! Fake Liberal Walking, here here.

 
At 8:31 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

It's hilarious that it came from Canada. Now the news is gone though.

 
At 8:41 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Are you saying that there is no ultra right zionist lunatic fringe?
I'm not going to get into a name calling spat with you little man. Why aren't you off fighting your crusade anyway? No balls?

 
At 9:14 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

What part of fake liberal walking did people not understand?

 
At 9:25 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

oh ya, about the name calling. Let's just clear the bs. You felt the need to start using accussations like racist, I didn't call you anything before that.

People like you like to act like the open minded tolerant human being, but don't even try that bullshit on me, okay?

ultra right zionist lunatic fringe indeed.

 
At 9:26 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Well, personally I don't get it at all. The term 'liberal' doesn't translate from American usage to politics elsewhere. Thus you'll need to explain it to me.

 
At 9:29 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

People will notice I didn't mention that ultra right zionist lunatic fringe is a name and it is called, and it was name called. But that really doesn't matter. Because tolerant open minded fake liberals can never be racist, only ugly Americans are racist.

 
At 9:31 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Again, confud,

What part of fake liberal walking did you not understand?

 
At 9:40 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

But you are a self professed racist. And you seem to wear it as a badge.
And I am not acting open minded, tolerant or anything else. I detest religious extremism as much as anyone but I refuse to be chauvanistic about it. Christian, Jew or Islamic, I don't give a toss. The secular brutality of Saddam, the barbarism of the House of Saud or Israeli helicopter gunship attacks in the tiny shred of land remaining available for Palestinians to continue to maintain their miserable existence. It's all the same.

You, on the other hand , not only espouse extremism in your own right, but openly advocate the killing and subjugation of an entire religion because of the actions of a few extremists. I'd much rather we (the west) didn't actively recruit more extremists by repeating the very same acts that started the grievances.

Now, I asked a genuine question. No one here seems to have the courage or the ability to answer it.

 
At 9:45 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said...

Confude --

Ahmadinejad has publically stated that Israel will be wiped out in one storm, that it is a one-bomb state, that the apocalypse will come in two years, the European massacres of the Jews never happened, and so forth.

They even banned Beethoven in Iran last November. Apparently they don't like the message of celebrating the brotherhood of man, because that would include Americans and Jews.

Is it that hard to believe that they may have a dress code for the people they promise to annihilate? Perhaps the press may be wrong, but *don't* tell me the Mossad is behind this.

In short, the leader of Iran is a delusional, apocalyptic religious zealot who wants on nukes for nefarious purposes. His open support for Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah alone on prudential grounds justifies airstrikes against his nuclear facilities, though Europeans think giving him aircraft, long range missiles, and light water reactors will make him come back to rationality.

Just because we don't want to be like Mussolinis and Hirohitos doesn't mean we must be like Neville Chamberlains and Jacques Chiracs.

 
At 9:48 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Are you saying that there isn't an ultra right wing zionist faction? Pull your head out of the sand boyo. And stop trying to play the victim. Is that why you aren't out there putting your life on the line for your beliefs? What a sook.

 
At 9:52 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said...

Confude --

If you think Muslim fanatics have legitimate "grievances," why aren't *you* helping them?

You're throwing stones in a glass house buddy.

 
At 10:00 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

If you think Muslim fanatics have legitimate "grievances," why aren't *you* helping them?

In fact, in his heart, he is.

 
At 10:13 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Ahmadinejad, more than anything else, is a populist.

BTW I didn't mention or mean mossad. The really scary nutty zionists are mostly in the US and there are probably more christians amongst them than jews. They believe in biblical apocalypse and actually seek it. The last thing they want is peace in the middle east.

The commentary on Ahmadinejad's anti-Israeli comments are open to debate, but it is pretty hard, from my readings on the subject to interpret them as a direct threat toward Israel. As I said, he is a populist and moslems are keenly aware of the double standards applied to Israel, and yes, they do hate them. How could they not? As far as being delusional or anything else, I doubt that very much, and he was elected after all, in a similar climate to GWB the second time. Iran is a country under constant threat from the US and Israel. 2 of it's direct neighbours are under occupation. It fought an 8 year war sponsored by the US and the Saudis that killed around a million of its citizens AND came under direct US attack. Who could blame them for wanting nuclear weapons when all their neighbours are nuclear armed?
Having said that, there is no evidence that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons at all. None, period. The IAEA has been unequivocal, and the uranium enrichment that they are doing is not of the type required for weapons grade plutonium. The NPT which Iran willingly signed (and Israel didn't) is quite clear that all signitories have the unalienable right to develop nuclear power. Guaranteed in the preamble..

If the US won't abide by international law (in this case the NPT) then how do you expect international law to be applied to anyone else?

This can't be about whether you like these guys or not, it has to be about the law and actual facts. I don't like them much myself, but I can't see how the big stick approach can possibly benefit anyone.

 
At 10:19 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Ahmadinejad, more than anything else, is a populist.

So was Hilter and yeaaaa he envaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, France ... what business was it of western democracies to oppose Nazi expansionism!

gah this is to easy

 
At 10:20 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

ason H. Bowden said...
Confude --

If you think Muslim fanatics have legitimate "grievances," why aren't *you* helping them?

You're throwing stones in a glass house buddy.

10:52 PM, May 19, 2006

nyomythus said...
If you think Muslim fanatics have legitimate "grievances," why aren't *you* helping them?

In fact, in his heart, he is.

That is such childishness. I'm not supporting any side.

It isn't my wish to help fanatics of any type. Every country has acts in their history that they can't be proud of. Mine does and yours does. Denial isn't going to help because you will just willingly trip up again and again. It is this denialist view that tricked you into thinking you'd be welcomed as liberators in Iraq. I mean , really. How short can your memories be and how long can you go on believing that Israel is just "defending itself"?

 
At 10:26 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

So was Hilter and yeaaaa he envaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, France ... what business was it of western democracies to oppose Nazi expansionism!

If you can draw any parallel whatsoever between 1930s Germany and modern day Iran, I'd very much like to see them. That would be a good laugh I'm sure. Germany WAS arming and Hitler was an avowed expansionist. Iran has never invaded any of it's neighbours and noone of any credibility has shown any cause to suggest that they are determined or interested in invading anyone now.

 
At 10:40 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iran's new president has repeated a remark from a former ayatollah that Israel should be "wiped out from the map," insisting that a new series of attacks will destroy the Jewish state, and lashing out at Muslim countries and leaders that acknowledge Israel.

well ... start laughing

 
At 10:42 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

No one here seems to have the courage or the ability to answer it.

Like I said before. Courage isn't measured by taking the dare of a bully cause he called you chicken on it. That is actually called stupidity and weakness.

Just because we don't want to be like Mussolinis and Hirohitos doesn't mean we must be like Neville Chamberlains and Jacques Chiracs.

Don't put Hirohito's name with Mussolini. That does Hirohito a great dishonor.

Pull your head out of the sand boyo.

Seems like there's a lot of "boys" around here.

And stop trying to play the victim.

You're a racist if you want to defend yourself from Islamic jihadists, and you're a victim if you complain about the Islamic Jihadists.

Is that why you aren't out there putting your life on the line for your beliefs? What a sook.

What happened to the "I just wanna understand the other view"?

That is such childishness. I'm not supporting any side.

I don't think a child knows what maturity is, just to be clear.

A lot of people sound reasonable and open-minded about things... that is up until you see past their mask like with Spank. The self-rationalized rhetoric about "neutrality", "not taking sides", "cosmopolitan enlightenment", and this curious... certainty. Almost a fanatical certainty.

Confud is certain Iran is not arming. Confud is certain Iran is not enriching weapons grade uranium. Confud is certain that Israel is the aggressor because they are planning to use their nuclear weapons. Confud is certain that Amanie is nothing like Hitler.

Why is Confud appearing so certain? Because Confud has to be. Otherwise, *shrugs* bad things happen.

 
At 10:53 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

confudeforeigner has no recourse now but to go anonymous and do a neoneoconned style psychobabble gorilla hit and run thingy …. But I could be wrong. I could.

 
At 10:55 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"They even banned Beethoven in Iran last November."

Actually they banned it from state radio only. But crazy its true.

Remember the Dixie Chicks? Crazy but true too.

There are christians who want the DaVinci Code banned and there were plenty of calls to ban Brokeback Mountain too.

The BBC banned the Sex Pistols in 1976 too.

Maybe we should nuke London first.

BTW. He didn't actually deny the jewish holocaust. he derided what he called the myth surrounding it and suggested that the Jewish homeland should have been created in Germany and Austria, which is a whole lot different and not entirely unreasonable.

 
At 11:09 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Confud is certain Iran is not arming. Confud is certain Iran is not enriching weapons grade uranium. Confud is certain that Israel is the aggressor because they are planning to use their nuclear weapons."


I would rather take the word of the IAEA than the word of the coterie of oil opportunists and zionists pulling lil George's strings. Hans Blix was right wasn't he?

 
At 11:16 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh, and here's a parallel, successive US presidents and Israeli prime ministers to this day have denied the Armenian genocide (almost certainly so as not to jeopardise their Turkish and Kurdish strategic interests)

Complicated ain't it?

 
At 11:23 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Confudeforeigner – do you ever read? Or do you just moonbat?.

BTW. He didn't actually deny the jewish holocaust.

Iranian Leader Denies Holocaust.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has courted further controversy by explicitly calling the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry a "myth".

"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

On banning: A government banning something because of a materials mere artist expression and citizens of a free society challenging or shunning what they think are affronts to their liking -- are two different worlds.

Free people are free to write, free to read, and even free to shun what they dislike.

Of course there are exceptions – if something is fraudulent, or harmful to consumers, etc … common sense, case by case, measures might warrant banning. For example, a medical drug that turns out to be detrimental to patients – well for the love of God please ban it! Or oh oh oh that’s FASCISM!!!!?

Okaaaaaay, Nighty night. BTW: I still love the Sex Pistols :)

 
At 11:30 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Jacques Chiracs"

I find the US right's demonization of Chirac amusing really. I'm not a fan of his in any way, but standing up to the US over Iraq was hardly an act of cowardice as you characterize it. You'll probably trot out all the usual stuff about self interest and no doubt there was a lot of that, but the French people were very much against the war, so whatever else, it was democracy at work.

Spanish democracy worked almost as well and now the Italians have spoken too. Democracy can be a rough mistress when others have it.

 
At 11:32 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Remember the Dixie Chicks? Crazy but true too.

You have to really ask yourself why someone sees any similarity between people deciding not to hire the Dixie Chicks to appear on their radio show, to the Iranian government threatening on pain of death the ban of Beethoven.

Maybe we should nuke London first.

That's a good idea, but I prefer France then Quebec. The rest of Canada is okay, though.

Hans Blix was right wasn't he?

Sure, anyone is right when he takes thousands in bribes.

I find the US right's demonization of Chirac amusing really.

We would assassinate Chirac, but Bush told us not to.

You'll probably trot out all the usual stuff about self interest and no doubt there was a lot of that

A lot of Jacksonians don't look at it based upon self-interest so much as vengeance, honor, and um revenge. Ya, revenge.

Spanish democracy worked almost as well and now the Italians have spoken too.

Ya, ain't democracy great. The people will vote however you tell them to vote, because you hold all the welfare checks and terroist bombs.

 
At 11:35 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

The difference is in the nuance and may well be in the translation. He refers to the myth surrounding the massacre. He then goes on to say that the Europeans were responsible. Hardly denying it is he?

All the Israeli PMs have made similar claims with regard to atrocities against arabs and Armenians.

Either way, what has this to do with nuking them over developing nuclear power?

Never mind the bollocks.

 
At 11:39 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Hans Blix was right wasn't he?

Sure, anyone is right when he takes thousands in bribes.

You are a seriously deranged individual. Autodelusional IMO.

 
At 11:48 PM, May 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

You are a seriously deranged individual. Autodelusional IMO.

Do you see the Nile?

Hardly denying it is he?

Nice rope a dope.

 
At 12:53 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

threatening on pain of death the ban of Beethoven


Yeah mate, little sound bites, like small shiny things to a kitten. Haven't you got nascar to watch or something?

 
At 1:58 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

The big problem with your Zionist plot theory, CF, is that if the US was really run by Zionists, why wouldn't they have fabricated some pretext for nuking Iran and gone ahead and done it. Can't deny what's been vaporized after all, so it'd be pretty easy to pull off a scam like that- IF there really were a Zionist ruling class...

"That is such childishness. I'm not supporting any side."

On this, I believe you. You know what happens to those who support neither side, don't you?

Oh, and this Yank hates NASCAR- F1 is far superior- Europe has that going for it, at least.

 
At 2:05 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"They even banned Beethoven in Iran last November."

Actually they banned it from state radio only. But crazy its true.


I wonder how much it's being played on 'private' radio there now?

"Remember the Dixie Chicks? Crazy but true too.

There are christians who want the DaVinci Code banned and there were plenty of calls to ban Brokeback Mountain too.


Free market at work. True freedom. If you wanted to see it, you could, and some companies responded to consumer pressures, as happens from many other political angles, but you only point out these. Why, I wonder? When the government bans things thats a problem, when companies are responsive to their consumers, that's freedom. Not that you'd understand, apparently.

The BBC banned the Sex Pistols in 1976 too."

That's why we here in America feel superior to Europe.

 
At 2:48 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"That's why we here in America feel superior to Europe".

Well, the last time I looked no European states were trying to introduce 'creationism' to their school science syllabus. And you have little right to feel superior when the Europeans are so much better educated. (By the way, most Brits would not call themselves Europeans and I thought that BLiar was just daaaaarling to you neocons)

The young Y man seems to think that everyone is jealous of his money but I am from a country whose per capita net wealth is greater and our quality of life index beats anything anywhere in the US.

The point is, that there is no black and white, no good vs evil.

The US has done some wonderful things and others that it should be ashamed of, just like most other countries. This whole "greatest country in the world" and " we are good and they are evil" thing is just plain dumb. And more importantly counterproductive.

The Israel/Palestine tragedy is the number 1 root cause of the problem with moslems yet you treat it glibly and blithely. The US populace needs to know the truth. Arabs weren't responsible for their holocaust and Palestinians should not be paying for the sins of Europe. The treatment of Palestinians by each and every Israeli administration in colluson with the US is a crime against humanity every bit as big as bin Laden's crime in 2001. The oppressed have become the worst and cruelest of oppressors.

 
At 8:36 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

i see neo doesn't really care if the story is true or not - it still gets posted. So much for the open minded lets all think about this approach. It may or ay not be true but the real purpose of it on here is to prop up the whole edifice of confused ideas that passes for the neo-con philosophy.

Remember the two rules of neo-cons

1. We are right

2. You are wrong. and stupid. and evil.


And now.........

the brand new third rule. Everybody who agrees with uis right and good and clever.

Hence neo's consistent failure to condem the violent ramblings of yrmdwnkr.

Somewhat bizarrely this same approach is taken by many liberal amercain blogs. Well same rules different content. So maybe it is something to do with americans.

Given that you lot are so keen on science fictiona nd fantasy try reading the hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy. In there is a group called the krikkit nation who cannot cope with the idea of peopel different from them. Maybe this is what America has become - Krikkit. Whatever this constant chant of USA & ISrael right everybody else wrong is just childish.

Elvis lives!

 
At 8:40 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

The birthrates in Europe among native europeans is quite low. Immigrants from muslim countries are out replicating native europeans most prodigiously. Just as it requires only a small quantity of yeast to bake the bread or brew the ale, so it requires but a bit of third world fanaticism to turn a nation into a place most educated and intelligent persons are trying to leave, rather than enter.

Does Europe still exist? I visited relatives there last year, but if current trends persist . . .

 
At 9:39 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

Rubbish. Europen cities are thriving multicultural places with vast change taking place. They are dynamic. Try going to Berlin. And it has always been like this. Hitler always hated Berlin because he thought it wasn't properly German. He wanted some pure German fantasy there. sounds like you do as well. Europe will keep changing, it will continue to thrive and it will tolerate a wide range of potentially conflicting groups. And the same can be said of America. New York is an amazingly diverse place that will keep changing and will remain tolerant. And in years to om ehow many americans will be primarily spanish speaking?

and there will always be others who want to keep some bizarre racial purity.

 
At 10:38 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Dale St. Clair said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 10:39 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Dale St. Clair said...

Psssst. Don’t look now but we have another pigeon. The mark believes Iran wants to make nuclear energy for electricity. He thinks Ahmadinejad is a harmless populist, you know, like Huey Long was. It should be easy to sell him some of our swampland in Florida. He doesn’t even believe Ahmadinejad was threatening Israel! Quick, get out that contract for the Brooklyn Bridge!

It gets even better! He thinks it’s the Jews and the Christians that are the threat, not the Islamic terrorists! Do we still have those contracts for the vinyl siding?

 
At 10:40 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Palestinians should not be paying for the sins of Europe.

So this is why Europe pays for Palestinian terror. Or, rather, it was, before the US introduced free elections in Gaza.

The treatment of Palestinians by each and every Israeli administration in colluson with the US is a crime against humanity every bit as big as bin Laden's crime in 2001.

You people think burning the US flag is speaking truth to power but dirtying the Koran is a human rights violation.

The oppressed have become the worst and cruelest of oppressors.

So this justifies the US stooping to the level of terroists? Or rather, this means the US is held to a higher standard, and must sacrifice for the crimes of Palestinians.... I don't think so.

2. You are wrong. and stupid. and evil.

I bet if everyone went through nnconned and confud's posts and compared it to the neo-con's, they would notice a distinct difference in the number of times stupid and evil were used.

Given that you lot are so keen on science fictiona nd fantasy try reading the hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy. In there is a group called the krikkit nation who cannot cope with the idea of peopel different from them. Maybe this is what America has become - Krikkit. Whatever this constant chant of USA & ISrael right everybody else wrong is just childish.

What the pock kind of ignoramus would use the Hitch Hiker's guide to the motherpocking galaxy to get their freaking knowledge from? This is the weirdest form of tu quoque argument I've heard.

Rubbish. Europen cities are thriving multicultural places with vast change taking place. They are dynamic.

For those in the doubt, nnconned is truly serious.

 
At 10:53 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

for those in doubt yrmadwnkr that is because i have lived in several of them and know of what i speak....unlike you inhabiting your fantasy books.

and crapple thanks for the example of a constant chant of USA & Israel right everybody else wrong and my god you were nearly humourous, well done.

 
At 11:10 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

unlike you inhabiting your fantasy books.

So the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a must have book?

constant chant of USA & Israel right everybody else wrong

I do have to wonder where the Left realizes the slogans they chant are actually created by themselves. The Left creates their opponents out of whole straw, and then proceed to beat it down and claim a victory. See, they'll take on neo-cons because neo-cons are fascistic and violent, but when Islamic Jihad blows up a few embassies, then they are rather quiet when faced with real danger.

When Amanie talks about smiting Israel off the maps, he is just misunderstood. But when I talk about fighting Islamic Terror, oh that then makes me a racist neo-con, which the Left will endlessly repeat.

Why does this behavior remind me of bullies?

 
At 11:15 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

and for those in doubt about the extent to which yrmdwankr lives in a world of fantasy have look at this link to his sadly uncontributed to blog.

I think we should all make a special effort to leave some comments there.

 
At 11:26 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:26 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Well, like arnold said, bad publicity is still free publicity.

 
At 11:32 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said...

I find this amazing.

It is taken on faith that George Bush is a puppet controlled by the oil companies, the defense contractors, and the Jews.

In contrast, Mahmoud talks about how the return of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi, is imminent. He says the end of times will come in two years. Mahmoud says Israel must be wiped off the map, denies the holocaust, and calls Israel a one-bomb state. And he talks about Iran's right to nuclear energy in front of crowds chanting "Death to America! Death to America! Death to America! Death to America! Death to America!" The juxtaposition of these chants and calls for nuclear power, well, is revealing.

But Mr. Leftist will come in and claim he is taking no sides. His moral equivalence is his vice, his evil. Supposedly the Iranians aren't led by religious fanatics, but are merely populist, and when they support Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, they're just misunderstood. However, George Bush mentions belief in a higher power, and *he* is denounced as the religious fanatic. George Bush is assisting Iraq's democracy and *he* is denounced as if he is just like a Hussein taking a Kuwait, or a Syria dominating Lebanon.

Postulating moral equivalence where it does not exist is stupid, and it is evil. Our critics need to get their heads out of the sand.

 
At 11:33 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Who said European schools are better than America schools? Laughable. America has nearly 100,000 foreign exchange students. Many Americans study in Europe but this isn’t even proportional because Americans actually have the money to travel, live, and study in Europe. Who is enjoying a high standard of living in Europe? It is those nations that forfeit their security obligations, and rely on America welfare, business and technology.

Who, and overall, talks about a Euro-American divergence of foreign policy? I think Central Europe and the some of the Balkans may yet ironically [from centuries of West European pawn-playing, belittlement, and subjugation] become the great savior of Chirac’s debacle [orientations towards Islam] of Western Europe.

See Of Paradise and Power,” by Robert Kagan. Kagan argued that Americans believe that only raw power can defeat evil, as Europeans prefer negotiation and compromise.

neoneoconned said: [LOL] European diversity is a shining example?? I suppose satellite images of the Muslim riots reminiscent of the bread riots of the French Revolution could be described as shinny – actually this isn’t funny I wish no civil disorder on any society [it’s tantamount to 67 cents disappearing from my old cookie jar]

You guys realize I’m not getting paid for your education here – some gratitude would be nice!

Okay later -- I'm going to the beach -- I hope.

 
At 11:38 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

yeah well that isn't what i said is you little apple thief. There is conflict in european cities, and there are riots. Large urban areas often have these problems - including US cities. But the point i was making is that migration to europe is not a poison of third world fanatacism as portrayed by al fin. in fact it creates more interesting and dynamic societies and economies. As far the rest of your post it is a good example of what i am going to call rule four of th eneo-cons

America and US good. Everybody else bad.

Your childish anti-europeanism is a mirror image of the childish anti-americanism that appears on so many left-liberal blogs.

 
At 11:54 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

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At 11:57 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

I doubt if Europe can survive very much more of the "thriving multiculturalism." The gang rapes by muslim immigrant youth alone are causing many europeans to consider emigrating to safer havens.

Muslim immigration is the curse of modern day Europe, its eventual death. Hirsi Ali is being hounded from "multi-cultural" Holland for challenging the growing tide of Islamic fanaticism in the Netherlands and Europe. Whoever dares to challenge the curse may end up like Theo Van Gogh.

No, best remain in denial, Europe. Take another sleeping pill and it will be allright.

 
At 11:57 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:58 AM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

in fact it creates more interesting and dynamic societies and economies.

Selling Kef, Turkish hash, worthless hand drums and beads is an interesting contribution, I don’t partake. You really should ground some of your philosophical and critical thinking skills in authority. When I was learning to draw on a fine art level, it was critical that I imitate the works of the Great Masters, to observe and analyse reason.

Neoneoconned, If all you do is 'invent' from your own imagination YOU WILL PRODUCE NOTHING. I wish you self-reliance and thus happiness.

BTW: What's really cool in art is when to take the best of those that are sucessful and combine it with your imagination -- wooo this is a wonder feeling!

 
At 12:03 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

great stuff you little apple thief. You wave your ignorance and racism like an empty flag. And if you think art is copying the form and content of somebody elses idea you really are not much of an artist.


And as for al pin (is that an arabic name) i am sure all that junk makes sense to you...

 
At 12:04 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Sorry neoneocon but your hollow name calling [ignorance and racism] shall not stop the world [western democracies of the willing at least] from facing and beating down a destructive fanaticism, ask Hitler.

Don’t’ I have some place to go? :)

New Neocon Topic Idea: South Africa Today

 
At 12:09 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Your reading and comprehension is pitiful.

 
At 12:09 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

it is not hollow. yrmdwnker is ignorant of life in european cities and your account of the contribution of migrants to european society and economies being the selling of drugs and worthless trinkets is racist and ridiculous. Turkish workers helped build germany after ww2.

 
At 12:10 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

great stuff you little apple thief

An. Apple. Thief. Is this guy serious? Oh, okay, he is. Nevermind.

And as for al pin (is that an arabic name)

The first thing he thinks about a person is whether his name is Arabic, and he is the one calling others racist... Oohhhhh.

 
At 12:15 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

look yrmdwankr the apple thief reference is to the image that the little apple thief nyomythus has on his blog.

asking al fin if his name was arabic was a reather feeble joke....

try and keep up

 
At 12:17 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

"little Apple thief"??! What a zinger!

Looks like spankee/ubee/elvis/nconned has taken another handful of uppers and is back among us. And I for one welcome him! He's fighting the good fight for Truth and Justice and Right -- I mean Wrong -- I mean Left! And Diversity! And Europe! And against not just the malignant cabal of neo-cons and neo-neo-neo-cons, but against that Great Overlord of Evil and Insanity and Violence, yrmdwankr himself!! Whatever would the lefties do without ya, spank?

 
At 12:20 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger chuck said...

The secular brutality of Saddam, the barbarism of the House of Saud or Israeli helicopter gunship attacks in the tiny shred of land remaining available for Palestinians to continue to maintain their miserable existence. It's all the same.

I think you left out ingrown toenails. It's all the same, as you say.

 
At 12:24 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

not spank - honest but i believe if we all wish hard spank will return

don't see you all evil me all good approach as helpful whichever side does it. I kepp saying to neo et al why do you not condem yrmadwnkr for his violence. I also invite people to condem the little apple thief for his racist description of european immigrants.

what i found so hard about much blogged material neoconand left wing is the black-white good-bad approach. i oppose the war therefore i must also be......then a long list is added.

you support the war therefore yo ust be.....same process different content.

the point i made was that immigration to europe has been invigorating. Same as it has in the USA

 
At 12:30 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

look yrmdwankr the apple thief reference is to the image that the little apple thief nyomythus has on his blog.

Don't these people, and I do them a favor by calling them that, have anything better than to read the blogs of people they disagree with? I swear, more Spankers read my blog in detail than those who actually agree with me on the issues.

Turkish workers helped build germany after ww2.

And guess what, their children's children, are still 2nd class citizens. Well, they're not even citizens, just 2nd Class.

asking al fin if his name was arabic was a reather feeble joke....

Racist jokes tend to be rather feeble.

but against that Great Overlord of Evil and Insanity and Violence, yrmdwankr himself!!

Yes, yes, I know, I only let the demon yermadwankr when the End Times come. Which, given the recent comments about Iran, are close to be fullfilled.

I tend to think nnconned and such, are not spank. You can tell if it is Spank or not if Spank puts links to my blog in his title, or if Spank puts weird other links in his title, or if Spank signs off his commenters with insults like "Wanker, idiot, ignorant, fool, etc".

You will almost never see Spank talking about specific quotes, because Spank doesn't use specific quotes often in his comments.

Also, Spank likes to change his name. So if you see a bunch of Supertrolls, Proud Neocons, bills, cracks, or some such all talking in Spank's style with Spank links, then well ya that's Spank.

 
At 12:35 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I kepp saying to neo et al why do you not condem yrmadwnkr for his violence.

And I keep saying if Neo disagreed with me on everything she does disagree with me about, she would have zero time to write in her blog.

I also invite people to condem the little apple thief for his racist description of european immigrants.

Okay, I condemn nnconned. Anything else you want?

i oppose the war therefore i must also be......then a long list is added.

You calling people names therefore you're an ad hominem using ignoramus high on the addiction of rage. Do you really think people give a damn whether you support the war or not when you're such a pain in the ass for them to talk to? We expect the French to be like this, but you're not French.

 
At 12:35 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

not spank: don't see you all evil me all good approach as helpful whichever side does it.

Just in case anybody new might be at all fooled by this rare "reasonable" statement, however primitive the expression, it's worth pointing out that the "you all evil me all good" approach that not-spankee here is attributing to this blog is a figment of his imagination -- or, more likely, a projection of his own simple-minded rectitude.

 
At 12:39 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

hey yrmdwnkr calm down man....cool that keyboard...don't let pain in the ass trolls like me get you so worked up. watch that bloodpressure.

what you got against the french then?

 
At 12:47 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

try this as an indication of how neo has tried to divide opinion into pro war sane anti war in need of therapy in her writing. As i keep saying this vehemence exists on both sides and reflects something odd in us political cultrue.

but as you remined me i am not here to be reasonable i am here ro amuse myself with a bit of trolling. Makes no difference as whoever disagrees on this blog gets the same treatment troll or no troll. Thos who agree can say the most godawful rubbish and neo keeps quiet.

 
At 3:30 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Jason H. Bowden said...

"i am not here to be reasonable"

That's an understatement. The left is skeptical of the very idea of reason. Consider Michel Foucault, who enthusiastically praised Iran's 1979 revolution for being anti-modern, anti-liberal, anti-rational, anti-western -- all characteristics of today's definition of 'progressive'.

What you write is the equivalent of a giant YEEAAGH! Or as a crappy ensemble like Oasis might answer for you, "Damn my education, I can't find the words to say About the things caught in my mind."

 
At 3:54 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

This site appears to be all about rationalizing and justifying the outright racism that you all seem to feel because of, or at least crystalised by Bin Laden's big wake up call. This racism bubbles to the surface because of your overwhelming fear and cowardice.

Reading through the 'essays' one can't help but feel exasperation at the willfull distortion of history and known facts and the use of outright lies to justify the morally reprehensible actions of the ruling clique in the US.

The sad part is that real people are having their lives destroyed and are dying because GWB has managed to convince enough of you of this childlike good vs evil thing. It doesn't seem to matter that Bin Laden and Saddam were poles apart or that the ordinary Iraqis hated Saddam too.

It doesn't seem to occur to you that these gangsters in Washington are bankrupting your childrens' futures in the pursuit of oil and destabilization of the middle east.

We see the same trend hroughout the comments of US good, everyone else either evil or decrepit/bankrupt/in decline no matter what the truth is. The US is simply not at the head of the pack in many areas of modern endeavour. Your education system is inadequate but you'd have people believe that it is the envy of the world.

Too many lies here to list, but I will give you one perfect example in the Iraq war justification spin thread. Saddam expelled the wepons inspectors, according to the essay.

This never happened. Period.

And now we are getting the same pattern of lies and dissembling to justify another military boys own adventure. They couldn't even win in Afghanistan, Iraq is spiralling out of control, and the answer is? Let's start another disaster. Brilliant.

 
At 4:07 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 4:07 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 4:12 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

hey yrmdwnkr calm down man....cool that keyboard...don't let pain in the ass trolls like me get you so worked up. watch that bloodpressure.

what you got against the french then?


Only ignorant fools believe one of my milder rhetorical forms means they've gotten my goat. Others, know better than that.

In the end, I was just trying to look out for your interests, nnconned. I don't want you to be conned into the game. You look at it as you being calm and me losing my cool. Look, that trollish chicken bully game went out of fad awhile ago. You don't seem to realize how you appear to others, and any attempts to help you realize that becomes just another stick to beat your scarecrows with.

As i keep saying this vehemence exists on both sides and reflects something odd in us political cultrue.

People killing each exists on both sides of a war, but that don't mean the US should surrender to Hitler and Stalin.

try this as an indication of how neo has tried to divide opinion into pro war sane anti war in need of therapy in her writing.

She just be trying to help ya out, like I am. You don't like our help and you call us names, that's not nice.

This racism bubbles to the surface because of your overwhelming fear and cowardice.

Anyone ever notice when Harry Reid pulls his Zionist conspiracy strings, everyone else in the movement starts echoing him? Reid says it is racist, his followers repeat it about other things. Sooner or later you might have a conspiracy.

Reading through the 'essays' one can't help but feel exasperation at the willfull distortion of history and known facts and the use of outright lies to justify the morally reprehensible actions of the ruling clique in the US.

I'm pretty sure racism is pretty hot history in Europe at the moment.


The sad part is that real people are having their lives destroyed and are dying because GWB has managed to convince enough of you of this childlike good vs evil thing.


Bush won't be in office in a few years, and we'll still believe that terroists evil and liberators are good.

The US is simply not at the head of the pack in many areas of modern endeavour.

Tell it to the Marines. You Europeans have been insulting Americans since day one. First you talked about how the "air" in the Colonies makes people and animals shorter. Then you started talking about capitalism making Americans a bunch of money grubbing merchants that can't hold their own in WWI, WWII. Then it's the "America the hyperpower bully" when we've proved our military power. You Euros will never give it up, anti-Americanism is too addictive. Modern endeavours, hah. The only modern endeavours came from America. Europe has been copying American methods and philosophies since day one.

And now we are getting the same pattern of lies and dissembling to justify another military boys own adventure. They couldn't even win in Afghanistan, Iraq is spiralling out of control, and the answer is? Let's start another disaster. Brilliant.


You're damn straight the Europeans could never win in Afghanistan or Iraq. Kicking them out of the Coalition and keeping Poland, Iraq, and Afghanistan will do a lot towards making sure people like Blair don't drag the US through the UN again and foul up our war timeplan.

 
At 4:15 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

it is an interesting idea the whole reason business. The very topic of this thread shows how problematic it is.

Neo leaps on a story going round the blogs because it confirms her world view, but protects herself by saying it s a disputed story. Very reasonable but also a tad dishonest. If you think it is untrue why disseminate it?

yrmdwankr dresses up his increasingly erratic and irrational posts with logical terms to make himself appear more reasonable.

the little apple stealer assumes nobody else has ever sat down and thought about things or tried to think about the idea they may be wrong. course i have thought if all you lot on here may be right - you are not! you are small minded uscentric bigots.

and jason baby makes up all these arguments against the mythical "mr leftist" in a rational and reasonable manner...merrily leaping from one killer point to another.

but it is all a front for the basic ideas of the whole pack.

let us review the laws of neo-conservatives so far;


1. We are right

2. You are wrong. and stupid. and evil.

3. Everybody who agrees with us is right and good and clever.

4. America and Israel good. Everybody else bad.

5. We are reasonable and rational. You are not.

6. there are no conditions under whih we would have to admit to being wrong.


...and the whole lot is there to cover your rather nasty and selfish ideas. Bit of racism her, smidge of arrogance there, sneering lack of concern for the environment, slight fear/over-regard for the rich and powerful, real impressed by people with guns, and a total contempt for anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you.

 
At 4:28 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

course i have thought if all you lot on here may be right - you are not! you are small minded uscentric bigots.

nnnconned deleted 2 of conned's posts just to add that line in. And still didn't correct this line.

Bit of racism her, smidge of arrogance there, sneering lack of concern for the environment,

Where they be learning English? Or is the Rage making it hard to formulate thoughts in a language known to man?

Here's two examples of the rather insane rhetoric going on.

Why Confud shouldn't be believed

Click on Collapse comments, then scroll down and tell us what you notice

They're not wrong, they're insane, unbalanced, in need of help. Who has the compassion to help our fellow human beings?

What do I mean by insane? People who don't know what is real or not real, what is logical or not logical, those are insane people.

 
At 4:36 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Neoneoconned is in a deep hole here people [and confudeforeigner too, last minute insert], and to climb out would a hand up. Neoneoconned [and confudeforeigner], be open-minded and at least consider some re-evaluation of your world view. You could be our protégés! And I’m not a bigot or racist. Using the terms bigot and racism so loosely diminishes the serious meaning of those terms. Let’s start by defining “racism” – what does the dictionary say, lets agree on a definition and then look for where racism on this blog has been demonstrated. I have no tolerance for racism or bigotry, and will denounce it where ever I see it. Just crying, “Racisms! That’s racisms!” is just dumb – and is strongly, arguably a gross affront to people [me for one] who have really been victims of racism. Are you whining to be a victim of racism? We're not handing out checks here.

 
At 4:37 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Confused: Too many lies here to list,...

Which is the one partial truth in his otherwise routinely distorted and lie-filled comment. If ever you wanted a picture of what the "indecent left" in all its glorious and odorous malignancy looked like, our confused foreigner provides it: "outright racism that you all seem to feel"; "Bin Laden's big wake up call"; "the use of outright lies"; "Bin Laden and Saddam were poles apart"; "gangsters in Washington"; "bankrupting your childrens' futures in the pursuit of oil"; etc., ad nauseum. You could set up this predictable stream of garbage as a macro and spew it out with a single key press.

At least the multiple spankee clones were trolling -- this bin Laden sycophant is serious.

 
At 4:39 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Who, and overall, talks about a Euro-American divergence of foreign policy? I think Central Europe and the some of the Balkans may yet ironically [from centuries of West European pawn-playing, belittlement, and subjugation] become the great savior of Chirac’s debacle [orientations towards Islam] of Western Europe."

WTF? Chirac's orientation toward Islam? France is at the forefront of the elimination of religious militancy under Chirac. France has a huge moslem population because of its colonial links to Algeria you dope.

"Who said European schools are better than America schools? Laughable. America has nearly 100,000 foreign exchange students. Many Americans study in Europe but this isn’t even proportional because Americans actually have the money to travel, live, and study in Europe. Who is enjoying a high standard of living in Europe? It is those nations that forfeit their security obligations, and rely on America welfare, business and technology."

Less than 20% of Americans have passports (the lowest in the OECD) and the foreign students in the US are mostly studying technical disciplines. Less than 30% of americans can place the 7 continents on a map. American "education" outside of the elite universities is a standing joke. I've no idea what "american welfare" you are talking about. The US is the meanest nation in the OECD when it comes to foreign aid and your trade policies and those of the EU, particularly with agricultural subsidies, is a blight on the developing world.

The view of most people around the world was that a trumped up war in Iraq would be detrimental to western security. Nothing has changed that view and is in fact being borne out by events. Islamic militancy is on the rise, not waning.

Iraq had nothing to do with it anyway. Bin Laden and Saddam were an anathema to each other.

 
At 4:48 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

"indecent left" idiot, what does that mean ? they don't agree with you? aw come on.

and little apple thief i said racist because the description of the contribution of immigrants to europe as selling drugs and trinkets was racist. It is not an acusation i make lightly as overuse undermines the word.

and yermdwankr getting a sermon on reality from a man so badly lost in world of warcraft is pretty funny.

 
At 4:49 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

The view of most people around the world was that a trumped up war in Iraq would be detrimental to western security.

For someone that likes to act like he knows geography, maybe someone should tell him that most of the people around in the world do not live in the West.

You guys made me do this, with your accussations that I'm violent, go read this if you want violent

4) Our dog used to bark every time someone rang the doorbell. We were able to stop him by kicking him in the balls as hard as we could every time he did it. Problem is, we can’t see his balls anymore. I think we can get them to pop back out of his abdomen if we hold his head under water. My dad wants to just kick him in the ass until they fall back down. Which do you think will work?

Funny as all get out.

 
At 4:53 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

welcome to the world of yrmadwnkr

 
At 4:54 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

At least the multiple spankee clones were trolling -- this bin Laden sycophant is serious.

Ah yes, the refuge of the intellectually bankrupt. If you don't understand your opponents point, accuse them of being a sympathiser. I am as repulsed by Islamic extremists as you. The difference is that a) I am also repulsed by Christian and Jewish extremism. (A murderer is a murderer is a murderer etc) and b) I disagree that killing and subjugating ordinary moslems for the crimes of the extremists is a just, moral or (more importantly) an effective strategy. Or any sort of strategy at all.

There are way too many moslems to kill them all, at some point you have to win the hearts and minds to limit the appeal of the jihadists to the ordinary man or woman in the street. Killing all their neighbours and relatives with cluster bombs and denying them basic services and human rights isn't going to cut it. It amazes me that any thinking adult with an IQ of 70+ would think that you can win like this.

 
At 5:02 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Ahahahaha, oh yea I forgot – Algeria is a nation of Hindis and Buddhist. LOL, amazing that words can from your own finger tips but you still didn’t make the connection! Chirac's orientation toward Islam? [an astounding question] concluded with France has a huge moslem population because of its colonial links to Algeria and... you dope topping of the paragraph as some kind of self-revealing cherry – a Sundae, for me? :)

Why do I have to argue? LOL

 
At 5:05 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Does neone know what conned is talking about? What is this warcraft thing?

If you don't understand your opponents point, accuse them of being a sympathiser.

Presumably this is different from calling people who you don't like and who you don't agree with, racists and idiots.

I am as repulsed by Islamic extremists as you.

I thought this guy was on nobody's side? You know, Neutral?

 
At 5:17 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

on yrmdwnkrs profile he lists one of his interests as rpgs one of which is world of warcraft. its the only one i have heard of hence the sarcastic reference to it.

so then oh brave warrior yrmwnkr, which one do you actually play?

 
At 5:22 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Christian and Jewish extremism ?huh?

When have Jews blown up innocent people in a German Church?

Or killed any one as a protest?

What Christians have imposed anti-democratic policies on society?

What Christians have flown passenger planes into office buildings?

Islam will get no respect for their radicalism; Islam will get respect from the world when they earn respect and stop screaming and crying.

You lack perspective.

Why do you defend a [so-called] religion that subjugates women to be beaten or stoned to death for minor infractions as directed my Islamic dogma. Do you think Islamic women are just not worthy of respect? Do their children deserve more than an indoctrination that their martyrdom advances the will of Allah? If they do deserve more – what do you propose to break their chains?

I propose deposing their dictators, offering a debate for the Reformation of Islam; some inclusions of a moral code, a rejection of war as a holy right for advancing Islam, etc…, and free trade in a free society of their choosing.

 
At 5:28 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

"indecent left" idiot, what does that mean ? they don't agree with you? aw come on.

Don't whine, connie, it won't help.

For anyone not familiar with previous go-rounds, the phrase "indecent left" clearly implies that there is a decent left with whom it's possible to carry on rational debate. That isn't possible with people who think that smashing airliners full of children into buildings full of people is a "wakeup call". One definition of "indecent" is "grossly unseemly or offensive to manners or morals" -- which, if anything, is too mild to describe the sick "morality" of someone who sides with the Iranian Lunatic in deriding the "myth surrounding" the holocaust; thinks it's "pretty hard" to see any direct threat from a regime that's talked repeatedly about wiping a country off the map; whose heart supposedly bleeds for a people who use their own children as human bombs to kill other children rather than sign a generous peace treaty; and so on and on.

We probably need a name for a particularly despicable sub-group of the indecent left -- call it the depraved left, and let confud's comments be an illustration.

 
At 5:29 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

and this is a great quote from yrmdwnkrs old blog

After playing Knights of the Old Republic, having already played the X-Wing and Tie Fighter series and the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces series, I understood the Force, the Dark Side, and the Light Side far more. Not in terms of movie like action sequences like "What did Yoda do to counter that Dark Jedi lightning", though I did understand that, but the basic philosophy of dark vs light.

which is pretty much where all this black and white view of the universe comes from......reality. you wouldn't know it if it ran up and bit you.

 
At 5:31 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 5:33 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

How do you know that World of Warcraft is an RPG?

Do you think Islamic women are just not worthy of respect?

It's not about for or against human rights. If you believe, as confud does, that all the evils that the Palestinians and Arabs do is because of the Zionists, the US, and Israel then it really doesn't matter who hanged who in Iran now does it?

Humanity has an infinite capacity to self-deceive itself.

I'm impressed by conned. If he put 10% as much effort into research asymmetrical warfare, propaganda, and as he does trying to dig up dirt on his political opponents, he might be halfway competent.

 
At 5:35 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

alright then sappy i am the indecent left eh? well that saves you having to think don't it. I disagree with you therefore i support flying aircraft into buildings, that lunatic in iran etc etc. grow up. If you could be bothered to do anything other than divide the whole world into for and against you it might be possible that you realise there are many views of the world, many interpretations. But not for you neo-cons. I refer you to rule 2 of neo-cons. Those who disagree are evil and stupid.

Does it not occur to you that the us can not conquer every country that hates it....it is not on....so you had better start thinking of some other policies.....thinking.....oh well give it your best shot.

 
At 5:40 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

alright then sappy i am the indecent left eh?

No, no, elvis -- don't worry your pretty little head about it. Substance of any sort, even indecent, is a bit much for you -- you're just a troll, right?

 
At 5:44 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I just hate it when all these fake multiculturalists come in and try talking trash about their black and white viewpoints.

Their misdiagnosed and rather ignorant analysis is both an insult to their own intelligence as it is a piece of junk.

It is the fake multiculturalists and the fake liberals that see things in terms of good or evil. Why else would Lucas Arts say anger leads to the Dark Side, while the Light Side is ALWAYS good?

These people pay lip service to multiculturalism, but when confronted with the real multiculturalism of Oriental philosophies about dark and light, creation and destruction, they are totally clueless.

The Left, and most Democrats, believe that they are Good because they are liberals and enlightened, while everyone else is Evil because they are heathenish and ignorant of the light.

It never occurs to them to think that black and white are both necessary for vision. It never occurs to them that creation requires destruction and destruction requires creation. It never occurs to them that peace requires war, and war requires peace. Regardless of how smart they think they are, regardless of how multicultural they beat into your head that they are, they are still parochial village clowns from the back ass of nowhere.

THese are the kind of people who will tell you with a straight face that killing is always wrong. These are the kind of people who will tell you that ignoring violence and injustice by turning the cheek is always right and proper. These are the people who think in absolutes, and it is why the Left is so ruthless and so incompetent.

The philosophy of Good vs Evil, Light vs Darkness, is forever closed to the predators of ignorance. Which is a good thing, armed with real knowledge, the ruthless revolutionary Leftists might actually be dangerous.

 
At 5:45 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

you are going to have to explain that last one to me sappy....

 
At 5:48 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

mind you sappy doesn't need to be explained as yrmdwnkr does. citing lucas arts almost as though it is religious text is an impressive level of broken reality.

 
At 5:51 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"nyomythus said...
Christian and Jewish extremism ?huh?

When have Jews blown up innocent people in a German Church?

Or killed any one as a protest?

What Christians have imposed anti-democratic policies on society?

What Christians have flown passenger planes into office buildings?

Islam will get no respect for their radicalism; Islam will get respect from the world when they earn respect and stop screaming and crying.

You lack perspective. "

Where have you been hiding your head. Have a look at the tactics used by the zionists in 1948. Terrorism in all its glory in anyones language. And the atrocities committed in the name of Israel since, Sharon et al refer to arabs as cockroaches.

The IDF and the crazy "settlers" regularly kill Palestinians, blow up their homes, destroy their infrastructure, deny basic human services and rule by military force. Israel has attacked everyone of its direct bordering states AND Iraq. Israeli agents have been linked with terrorism and assassinations all over the world.

What Christians have imposed antidemocratic policies on society?

Well I don't have that much time or energy but you need to read some history. The whole middle eastern fiasco can be traced back to christian countries dividing the middle east up after WW1 and installing their their client despots in power. Iran was saved that treatment till 1953. All over the world the US is doing business with thugs and despots who have no interest in democracy or free speach. Let's not forget that Saddam was a client of Ronnie Reagan. Chileans may remember the suppression of democracy in 1973. Democracy was suspended in Vietnam in the wests crusade against communism etc etc etc. A quick look at the world today will reveal Iraq, the scrap of land left to Palestinians, Afghanistan. Real thriving democracies eh? The muslims of Bosnia didn't get much democracy from those caring Serbian Orthodox christians either.

Your assumption that I am defending Islam is as silly as the Ywankers assertion that I am a European. All religion is an anathema to me. All equally vile when taken to extremes. The examples you mention have parallels in your story book too I'm sure and if I was of a mind to stoop I'm sure I could find anecdotal evidence to "prove" christian/jewish/whatever religion's barbarity.

 
At 5:58 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

his name his yrmdwnker, or yermdwnkr, or yrmadwnkr, but you must never call him wanker because neo will remove the posting....it sworth keeping a copy because every now and again she has a hissy fit and things go missing.

you know too much history to be on this iste. The idea that a large group of people such as all muslims or jews do not share the same character or level of morality is a bit complex for this bunch.

 
At 6:07 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neo-neocon said...

neoneoconned:

As I said, I think you are an instructive example of a certain kind of thinking. You've not let me down in this regard.

I'm writing, though, about a topic on which I think you may just be honestly confused. Let me explain to you how this blog--and many other blogs--tend to work. We post things, based mostly on other media sources, with links so the readers can tell where we got our information.

Then, as in this thread, if we later learn information that may contradict or cast doubt on the original information, we also post that. But we don't erase the original information, because that would be dishonest. We keep it up there, updated with the phrase "Note" or "Addendum" or something of the sort, to let people know that there's been new information.

So that is how this post came to be. The original article appeared in what seems to be a credible Canadian newspaper. Then denials appeared, and the "note" was added later, when I found that out. To have erased the original post would have been disingenous. This way, there is transparency.

 
At 6:11 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh yes I know the type. Espousing the murder of 1.3 billion people because they were born to a certain religion is all good but swearing (even if in common usage) is disgusting.

Better not mention the Jenin massacre or Chatilla or Sabra. All good JudeoChristian tolerance and democracy at work.

 
At 6:17 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

thankyou neo,glad i am so instructive. And you are an instructive example of someone leaping round the media to find any story to prop up a black and white view of the world as simplistic as yrmdwnkr's.

and by the way when are you going to get round to condemning his consistent support of violence?

 
At 6:19 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Brad said...

I have come late to this thread and don't want to read through yet another spanky, steve j, spam mess. My question is why did anyone even address this confude in the first place?
Brad

 
At 6:28 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

i take it that by spam mess you mean people disagreeing with you? think how we feel :-)

 
At 6:32 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

My question is why did anyone even address this confude in the first place?

Cause it's a good idea to know your enemy, regardless of how he acts.

Besides, it is a very good example of Leftist hypocrisy. Confud first came on the Iranian Negotiations post and said he was just curious about the opposite viewpoint in America. Then he started calling me names when he didn't like the answers.

This is the de facto behavioral analysis of the Left. It helps to know whether someone belongs to the Left and how their behavior differs. You cannot destroy what you refuse to know about.

After I have categorized them thus, then I guess I am only responding cause I got no better idea of what else to do. Eventually, people will tire of it, and I'll stop because I'm not addicted on rage and I'm not going to flood places with comments just to annoy my enemies.

Btw, mockingbird posted something like 25 comments in a row in a post, link is in here somewhere. Not short ones either, but long quoted ones.

This is basically a summary if you don't want to read the entire comment list

 
At 6:33 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

No group or movement has a monopoly on virtue or vice -- welcome to humanity. There is no utopia, there never will be. War is a fact of humanity, it always will be. Good and evil are a part of humanity, sometimes it's a matter of bad verse worse -- going to war is bad, but not going to war can sometimes be worse. Since millennia unknown, humans have dreamt of the impossible reality of a powerful liberal democracy(ies), a haven for free thought, religion, pursuit of happiness, liberty – you name it. There are forces that would rather humans remain in bondage -- it is a campaign of centuries. Islam defeated India over a period of centuries. It encroaches on European in an ebb and flow over centuries. The pendulum is in the field of human bondage, I choose to be a part of the dialogue that pushes that pendulum at least back towards the center. If you don’t agree -- that’s fine, it is your free right. If you don’t see the threat, then in your own small way you are enabling it. ...And well yes if you don't care -- then why are you here? Go out and enjoy life.

Here’s is an example of a clear perspective: Winston Churchill, "In their loss of purpose, in their abandonment even of the themes they most sincerely espoused, Britain, France, and most of all, because of their immense power and impartiality, the United States, allowed conditions to be gradually built up which led to the very climax they dreaded most. They have only to repeat the same well-meaning, short-sighted behavior towards the new problems which in singular resemblance confront us today."

And neoneoconed you're just a fag. And I mean fag in the old-school sense of the word, as in "goober".

 
At 6:42 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Brad: My question is why did anyone even address this confude in the first place?

Because he so perfectly exemplifies the sort of moral and intellectual sickness that infects such a considerable segment of the modern left. In just his latest, for example, he jokes about "Espousing the murder of 1.3 billion people because they were born to a certain religion", which he's invented out of his own fevered imagination, and refers to well-debunked stories of Israeli "massacres" but has nary a word to say about Palestinian mass murders and murderers.

Nconned, on the other hand, by his own admission, has abandoned even the pretense of being reasonable and twits about purely as a troll -- in his latest, for example, he "takes" something that he knows quite well is false. Neither of them make rational arguments, but nconned can be largely ignored, while confud's ravings should be looked upon as symptomatic.

 
At 6:52 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

you ignore me sappy and i will just sulk.............

but you do raise an interesting point

i troll

fair enough abuse me i can take it

confudeforeigner has the patience to present arguments and evidence but is dismissed as lightly as me.

the lesson?

you lot treat all critical postings with contempt.

you deserve trolls

 
At 7:00 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

" and refers to well-debunked stories of Israeli "massacres" but has nary a word to say about Palestinian mass murders and murderers."

Please point me to this so called debunking of these atrocities. I haven't denied any Palestinian atrocities and yet you are denying well documented facts because they are uncomfortable for you in your pursuit of the pure US/Israel=good, everyone else=bad.

You are saying Israel good, Palestine bad. I am NOT saying Palestine =good. I'm only pointing out the fallacy that you are espousing. I am painfully aware of the complexities of ME politics and power and I'm not painting anyone as the good guys. I'll leave that sort of childish unreality to your ilk. the utter unreality of characterizing 6 million Palestinians as terrorists is as ridiculous as it is racist.

And I'm no leftist either. Don't try to categorize me with UScentric labels. They don't work outside your borders.

 
At 7:02 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

you deserve trolls

But spankee -- sorry, not-spankee -- we love trolls, esp. you! I thought you knew that! Playing whack-a-troll can be be a time-waster, I'll admit, but it beats crosswords in my opinion. So don't think your efforts, however obsessive-compulsive, aren't appreciated, please.

 
At 7:34 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

but it beats crosswords in my opinion

That's mean sally. I've never done crosswords. Could never finish them.

Please point me to this so called debunking of these atrocities.

Here comes the rope a dope again. You provide links, confud calls you a racist murderer, and then asks for more links. I suppose that is fair for this caliber of combat.

And I'm no leftist either. Don't try to categorize me with UScentric labels. They don't work outside your borders.

Like the transnational progressives and the link I provided for SB's interest, it is quite obvious it does work outside the borders of the United States. One reason being, the world acts based upon a copy cat version of US politics.

 
At 7:43 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Mate, you're getting well left out here. You should quit while you're behind. Are you from Texas?

Parliamentary democracy is not an american invention you dope.

The links to these debunkings are where?

 
At 7:44 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

confud: And I'm no leftist either.

Oh, I'm pretty sure you are, albeit of a type that decent leftists would be properly ashamed of. The bare-faced denial is just routine smoke.

Don't try to categorize me with UScentric labels. They don't work outside your borders.

Actually, confused, other countries have leftists too, and refer to them as such. Not that, given your demonstrated level of bigoted ignorance, you could be expected to know that.

 
At 8:09 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

You have no idea of what my political/economic leanings are which is how we categorize political wings. The right wing in most western democracies have traditionally been well to left of the leftist democrats in the US. These lines have been blurred in recent years admittedly but to compare political debate in my country/ies with what passess for debate in the US now is never going to work. The antiwar "sympathisers" (as you would categorize them) straddle all the political divides.

" Not that, given your demonstrated level of bigoted ignorance"

Aww, now you're just being insulting. Coming from one who denies historical facts in her unblinking faith in a barbourous middle eastern regime, I'll wear it as a badge of honour. Debunked my butt. Rumsfeld had to threaten sanctions against Belgium to stop them prosecuting Sharon, so they obviously didn't think they'd been "well debunked".

Oh, and BTW the reference to 1.3 billion people was aimed yduzzeebother, whose racist ramblings should be condemned but apparently have some currency with you. It was no joke. Have a look at some of his stuff.

 
At 8:37 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

You have no idea of what my political/economic leanings are which is how we categorize political wings.

The reason why I call it the rope a dope is because confud will state these statements, and not explain them. For example, he'll say you have no idea of this or that, but then he won't tell you what his idea of those things are. He is keeping his cards close to his vest, but he expects everyone else to let him have a peak at their cards.

Confud also takes pride in his country, but he never mentions. That's a bit weird when you think about it.

 
At 8:50 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Coming from one who denies historical facts in her unblinking faith in a barbourous middle eastern regime, I'll wear it as a badge of honour.

Please do.

That "barbarous middle eastern regime" is a nice touch, though. Which one, I wonder, do you mean? Saddam's Iraq? Syria, it's ideological brother? The mad mullahs' Iran? Egypt, that beacon of freedom and democracy? Or might it be the occupied territories of Palestine, the "leaders" of which have made war on Israel repeatedly, lost repeatedly, deservedly lost territory as a result, and now are reduced to fighting amongst themselves when they're not strapping bombs on their own children in an attempt to slaughter as many men, women, and children as they can? Somehow I don't think you mean any of those regimes, do you? You mean the only democracy in the entire Middle East, the one regime out of all the arab states that actually allows arabs a vote, and provides them with stated rights and freedoms backed up by a free press and the rule of law -- that's your "leftist" version of a "barbarous middle eastern regime", isn't it?

I don't care what political/ideological label you want to paste on your forehead -- in yourself, you're as insignificant as I am. The point is simply that this shameless but shameful apologizing for any number of arab/muslim butchers, fascists, and thugs is all too characteristic of a facet -- but a broad and influential facet -- of the left (though I don't doubt you could find some lunatics on the right that would would also express some admiring sympathy for the same pack).

 
At 9:26 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Brad said...

You have no idea of what my political/economic leanings are which is how we categorize political wings.

confude

your shallowness clearly identifies you.

 
At 10:25 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

I'm not apologising for any of the butchers you name or any others. You are apologising for one. Worse, you are blandly and blithely denying their barbarism. And how you can characterise Israel as any sort of true democracy is beyond me.
The Palestinians don't have a state remember. The Israelis haven't allowed them to. Not enough of their land yet obviously and they haven't tied up the water to their satisfaction.
And you have the nerve to call me an ignorant bigot?
As I said, I'm not defending any regime here, but I refuse to be a hypocrite and blindly believe the goodies v baddies syndrome that you so very clearly do. You are demonizing an entire race because of the despotic regimes that govern them.
The point is: that western hypocrisy and collective appeasement because of German sins is a festering sore in the middle east. This is the number one rallying call to muslim extremism. It is also a moral outrage by any western standards. If noone can see that, it won't ever be resolved. Clinton was just as bad for the Palestinians as GWB you know. George Bush 1st has been the only US president to have ever shown any backbone in standing up to the Israelis and that was too little too late and got lost in the mire of Kuwait.
I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject, I really do. It won't sit comfortably with your childlike view of the world believe me.
Before you demonize all Palestinians as terrorists ask yourself what it is that they want. They deserve some justice surely, or is it only Israeli and US citizens that qualify for justice?
You expect 6 million Palestinians to be Ghandi in the face of tanks and mortars and brutal suppression by anyones standards.

 
At 10:30 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

ydehellyoubother,
is it leftist or particularly liberal (and these are economic terms in the grown up world) to want to see an end to this senseless violence?
The notion that you can stop islamic extremism by bombing civilians and brutalising them by warfare is utterly gobsmackingly ridiculous.
Know your enemy. It helps to actually identify them first. Something you all don't seem to want to do. Is it so scary for you little dearies?

 
At 10:57 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Brad said

"confude

your shallowness clearly identifies you."

Well Brad, you're obviously a deep thinker. How about giving your opinion on how the war will be won. And while you're about it, tell us how your children are going to pay their way out of these multitrillion dollar deficits that your little good ol' boy is saddling them with.

Oh hell, let's just kill more Arabs/Persians/Pashtuns (or are they our good buddies now? Hmm)/Indonesians whoever and whatever coz we're westerners and we must be right, even when we're wrong.

 
At 11:08 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"
Confud also takes pride in his country, but he never mentions. That's a bit weird when you think about it "

The country of my birth has done very many good things and has some shameful history too. Just like yours. We have been very very staunch US allies and at a government level we still are. On a public level most people are horrified and sickened at our allegiance to the current gangsters in Washington.

That public diengagement with the US has only happened in the last 4 years. GWB had a huge amount of international political capital after 11/9/2001 but has totally squandered it. Anti US (as a state) feeling is the highest it's ever been in most of the countries I visit. Your guy is a cowboy and a buffoon. So's mine.

 
At 11:11 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

confud: And how you can characterise Israel as any sort of true democracy is beyond me.

Many things are beyond you, clearly. Israel is a democracy, unlike any other state in the region.

The Palestinians don't have a state remember. The Israelis haven't allowed them to.

The Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to have a state, from the UN Partition Plan of 1947 to the Camp David negotiations in 2000. In each and every case, they opted instead for war, violence and murder.

And you have the nerve to call me an ignorant bigot?

It's not a matter of nerve, it's a matter of simple observation.

You are demonizing an entire race because of the despotic regimes that govern them.

A bit rich coming from someone who doesn't hesitate to "demonize" Israelis and Americans. The whole business of "an entire race", of course, is simply an aspect of the tired old leftist canard of "rascism", which they trot out whenever specific arguments fail them, which is often. But there is a serious question about the extent to which the people of these regimes do support the vicious, potentially genocidal views of their "despotic rulers".

Before you demonize all Palestinians as terrorists ask yourself what it is that they want.

Everyone knows what they want but, apperently, you -- the government they've recently elected has the destruction of Israel as its constitutionally stated goal, a goal that has guided their bloodthirsty acts since their founding. But I think you know that much at least yourself -- and I think you know that your comment about "deserving some justice" is just so much maudlin drivel. Yes, they deserve some justice, but justice, when it finally comes to them, will require some considerable atonement for the foolish and evil deeds they've perpetrated for some 60 years.

 
At 11:39 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

As I said, you should do some serious reading. The Palestinians have NEVER been offered a state since 1967. The 1948 UN mandate did not include the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population or the confiscation of land.

I don't think discussing what Hamas is all about with you will do much good, but I will say this. The west, if it genuinely wants a resolution, is missing an opportunity by not dealing with them. They are amenable to a solution and they have the support of the population. The demands on them now simply can't be delivered without losing their constituency. This is realpolitik I'm afraid.

It is worth noting that Hamas has a unilateral ceasefire in place and has done for over a year now.

The demand for them to abide by the Oslo accords just goes to show what a farce Israeli/US policy is. For gawd's sake.

If you can't understand why the Palestinians are what they are now, there is little hope that you will ever understand the root causes of islamic terrorism and you will keep recruiting for Bin Laden.

You can't even seem to grasp that they (the Palestinians) had their country stolen.

Israel could start the process any time it wishes by abiding by UN resolutions to return to it's pre 1967 borders. And it could do some apologizing too. It could also pay reparations for all the real estate that they've stolen.

 
At 11:41 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

Since Confude has merrily skipped past this, I'll repost it and we'll see if he really stands by anything he says:

The big problem with your Zionist plot theory, CF, is that if the US was really run by Zionists, why wouldn't they have fabricated some pretext for nuking Iran and gone ahead and done it. Can't deny what's been vaporized after all, so it'd be pretty easy to pull off a scam like that- IF there really were a Zionist ruling class...

And I'll add to that- If our government was as bad as you think it is, why didn't they just carpet bomb the sunni areas of Iraq upon the invasion? Would've been much simpler. Why haven't the US just marched down through Central and South America in the last 60 years or so, instead of tolerating these bozos like Fidel and Hugo and all the rest in between? Why, if the world hates us so, and has for some time (9-11 aside), would we cae what the rest of the world thinks? Why do we host the UN in NYC?

Ahh, but I'll get no REAL answer will I?



Someone with more time than I should do a post that cuts and pastes these two into a post that answers them with themselves- it'd be pretty east, they're such preposterous hypocrites.

 
At 11:55 PM, May 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Britain is Europe, still.

The Palestinians don't have a state remember. The Israelis haven't allowed them to.

Then Hamas and Fatah must be fighting over who gets the money to kill the jews, instead of the power in their state. When Hamas was elected, that was just another crack in the Berlin wall of propaganda. People could no longer complain that the Israelis were not allowing the Palis to have a state, cause the Palis now have a state with a territory, goons, security forces, a government, and financial problems.

I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject, I really do.

When you read everything from the same biased people, it's not going to result in much critical thinking.

It won't sit comfortably with your childlike view of the world believe me.
Before you demonize all Palestinians as terrorists ask yourself what it is that they want.


People here at nncon has already defended the Palestinians, to the extent that we are willing to do so, no more groveling shall we do. Now is the time to laugh and celebrate, as the Palestinian Hamas government self-destructs while the Israelis are behind a wall.

I suppose I can do everyone a favor and summarize the arguments we would like to make, if confud hadn't started insulting people. It kicks Jacksonian honor to be reasonable to those who are clearly unreasonable, but given that this would benefit more than just the unreasonable people, I say give it a go.

I believe I can say with great confidence, that many people here believe that Israel has not handled the Palestinian situation well. After Israel beat the Arab invasion that displaced the Palestinians into refugee camps, Palestinians which were promised spoils in Jerusalem, Israel gave back something like 98% of the territory as a peace offering. To quote, that was 98% of the territory the Israelis obtained after beating back the invasion, this was territory set off for Palestinians by the UN. After the Palestinians lost, the Arabs got them to complain to the UN that Israel took their land. Which I suppose was true, if we ignored the fact that a bully beating on you with a baseball bat will accuse you of beating on him if a teacher came to see you grabbing the baseball bat out of the bully's hands in self-defense. Kinda ackward, but great propagandistic manipulation. I wasn't beating on a defenseless kid, he's beating on me. Ridiculous, but true.

Israel tolerates suicide bombings and has tolerated it for decades. An American nation would not have done so without massive retaliation up to nuclear demonstration strikes. But Israel is not America. Israel neither has the financial resources for a war of conquest as America does, nor does Israel have the manpower to occupy the territory they would have to take in another war. This however, does not excuse them for treating the Palestinians softly and with kind hearted compassion. A poll 4 years ago of if Jews hated Palestinians, majority said no. Don't think that would be the result if you polled Palestinians about hating Jews in 2001.

So that is one of Israel's problems. They don't crush the opposition, instead they try to appease them, because Israel has always been in a position of weakness. Even now, Israel is bunkng up on the defensive. Strong nations don't need defensive strategies, weak nations need detente, rope a dope, and stalls. Because Israel did not crush the Palestinians and the Arab nations backing them, Israel was sucked into a guerrila war. In which countless attacks on Israels were designed by Hamas and Arabs to cause Israelis to atrocity Palis. It's not like Hamas or the Arabs gave a damn about how many Palestinians died, so long as their cause was fullfilled and their bank accounts filled.

Now we get to the differences between how Israelis treat counter-insurgency and how Americans treat counter-insurgency. While we work with the indigenous population, train them in weapons and arms and fight with them brother to brother. The Israelis exclude Palestinians, limit Palestinian travel, and raid Palestinian homes without any local Palestinian help. One factor is of course, Israel is not a rich capitalist like America, they can't afford to pay out bribes for info, bribe people with reconstruction, or fund an entirely Palestinian local army with Israeli funds. They'd run out of money in no time. Israel just does not have the population to support the efforts required to crush an insurgency, America does. America by any geographical standard of history, is an Empire. With the resources of an Empire. We have 50 nation-states supplying American with men, engineers, manufacturing plants, resources, finances, etc etc. All the things to fuel the war machine, and it's still a peacetime economy, with 4% GDP paying for Defense.

A lot of people have not studied macro-economics in relation to Imperial scale resources, but you have to realize that if you connect 50 nation-states together with no tariffs, lotza highways, federal security, consistent laws, self-autonomy, and federal assistance you will get quite a mighty economic powerbase going on. Instead of one nation state oppressing the other, like Iran v Iraq or France v Poland, we have every 50 nation-states helping each other. It was after all, the entire purpose of the Union, to pool our resources and to treat any attack on one nation as an attack on all. Sounds good on paper, but Europe has proven that alliances are fickle without national integrity and unity.

Israel is rightly to be blamed for their inability and unwillingness to use any and all means to defend their citizens. Israel and the Jews are not a warlike race. If they were, they wouldn't have required America to bail them out in WWII. Pacifists can learn war pretty quick, but it seems the Jews are forever immune to war fury. America, however, is not. Which is why America's enemies are all former enemies, declawed, and sitting around either as allies or sulking in the shadows afraid to challenge the Lion of the West. You don't end up the same after fighting America, as you started out with. Not Britain, not Germany, not Japan, and not the Soviets.

While Bush's strategy is to bring democracy and hope to the MidEast, the people who opposed the Iraqi War believe they will bring hope to the midEast by using diplomacy and naivety. Everyone of you will have to decide if you want to be an Israeli diplomat or an American soldier for freedom.

There's not many other choices around. Israel has shown you the price for playing defense, and not offense. Bush has shown you the price for playing offense and not defense. Choose, and let no one be deceived by your real choice.

P.S. What is really funny is that soon after Spank complained that Ymar was going to kill everyone in a Leftist fury, someone came in a new thread post and started saying he believed the Palestinians were terroist enablers and etc and that Israel should assassinate more and was doing such a great job unlike Iraq, something like that.

What's funny is that I was the one arguing the Palestinian viewpoint, pointing people to the Palestinian Princess website so that they could get the real deal. Justin, also called an fantasy gamer, focused on the Palestinian plight. Spank was nowhere to be seen, that was to be expected.

So it is rather ironic that another dude comes in here and starts telling everyone that it is Ymar that wants to kill every Palestinians. Quite amusing. I'm not going to use the annoying and idiotic Leftist argument that cause i'm criticized for being too pro-Palestinian and being too anti-Palestinian as meaning that I am just right, that is a ridiculous argument. But it is some food for thought for people who wonder why confud appears so rational one time and irrational another.

It is cause a stringent analysis of my position or anyone else's, is not a strong point of Confud's. Regardless of how intelligent or informed Confud is, it matters not if his logic circuits are obsolete. Knowledge does you no good if you can't connect the dots, as we saw on 9/11.

 
At 12:04 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

douglas said...
Since Confude has merrily skipped past this, I'll repost it and we'll see if he really stands by anything he says:

The big problem with your Zionist plot theory, CF, is that if the US was really run by Zionists, why wouldn't they have fabricated some pretext for nuking Iran and gone ahead and done it. Can't deny what's been vaporized after all, so it'd be pretty easy to pull off a scam like that- IF there really were a Zionist ruling class...

I didn't respond to it because it is puerile and pointless. I'd rather stick to facts thanks.

Regarding Zionism and US foreign policy under Bush the younger, read "The American Century" and have a look at the signatories.

 
At 12:17 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

If you can't understand why the Palestinians are what they are now, there is little hope that you will ever understand the root causes of islamic terrorism and you will keep recruiting for Bin Laden.

I understand very well why the Palestinians are what they are now. There are a number of factors, as always, but certainly a prime one is the influence of mealy-mouthed apologizers in the West, many of whom are barely concealed anti-semitic rascists themselves, who propped up the weasely Arafat for years, and have long provided aid and comfort for their delusional and murderous wishes.

As for "root causes", again the primary such cause is long-standing Western appeasement, driven both by a neurotic sense of cultural guilt and inferiority, as you yourself illustrate quite well, and I think as well by a real fear of the belligerence and potential for cultural psychosis of large segments of the Middle East in particular. Both factors, incidentally, are well understand by the Islamist terrorists themselves, who've based their strategy precisely on these influences undermining their superficially more powerful enemy. That is, their strategy counts very much on the work of an internal cultural/political fifth column -- so keep up the good work there, confud.

 
At 12:19 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Ymarsakar said...
Britain is Europe, still,"

Well, it IS in the EU is what I suppose you mean, but your point is what?

As for the rest of your rant, well all I can say is that the Palestinians need money, food, medicine to live. Starving them won't make Ghandis of them.

Whatever you all think, and I suspect that most of you have never travelled outside the US, I know that the Palestinians in the main would like peace, but not at any price. They want some justice and all these attempts to have them surrender without revealing the price has passed it used-by date. Oslo did that and tne Israelis duped Arafat. Hamas aren't the vain fools that he became. Unfortunately the world doesn't seem to be listening.

Someone has to get serious about it. GWB has shown no willingness to do anything of the sort, like Clinton before him.

Oh and BTW Mossad originally funded Hamas. Hahahahaha. But gee, it is all so simple isn;t it saggy?

 
At 12:24 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Goesh said...

Playing the bait n' switch game with leftist trolls/anarchists again? I thought most here were smarter than that. Assault plans are being finalized on the mullahs and their 'toys' and you are haggling over morality and politics? Wake up folks, the Left has nothing on the plate any more, it's all gone - this is all they have what you see transpiring here. Let 'em have their last gasp, never deny a fallen enemy his/her dignity, quit picking their heads up out of the pus via one last word to them. Sheesh! Confud, go fuck yourself, it's all that remains for you, there's nothing more for you any way you want to cut it- it's that simple, folks, really.

 
At 12:24 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh really? So, its all my fault now? Seriously Saggy, I couldn't make this stuff up. Paranoid delusional rubbish. Better check under your bed for reds tonight.

What a joke.

 
At 12:29 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Well aren't you the tough guy, little mister investment banker. That's right, nuke those women and children, they deserve it coz they say nasty things about your pals in Israel. You know it's right. That'll learn 'em to toy with the shining light of democracy and all those down home freedom luvvers won't it?

Heehee and yeehaa.

 
At 12:33 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Well, it IS in the EU is what I suppose you mean, but your point is what?

My point is that Britain is part of Europe. The idea that Britain is not European, is a British parochialist idea, not something 300 million plus people adhere to.

Starving them won't make Ghandis of them.

No, but it will get rid of them. Presumably humans need more than 1,000 calories to survive daily.

I thought most here were smarter than that.

We're just bored. We want NEO to write a new post so we can read it, and in the meantime arguing with people is I suppose, for sally, a way to test her skills and her cool. For me, I'm just bored, period.

Let 'em have their last gasp, never deny a fallen enemy his/her dignity, quit picking their heads up out of the pus via one last word to them.

If any enemy of mine is on the ground, I'm putting my foot down on his throat. Hopefully he won't be able to breath afterwards.

Anyone else think it is a joke that confud was totally befuddled by my rant and could say nothing about it except some stock phrases ge picked up?

 
At 12:48 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Well, it IS in the EU is what I suppose you mean, but your point is what?

My point is that Britain is part of Europe. The idea that Britain is not European, is a British parochialist idea, not something 300 million plus people adhere to."

Well, maybe, but what has that to do with anything here?

"Starving them won't make Ghandis of them.

No, but it will get rid of them. Presumably humans need more than 1,000 calories to survive daily."

So, you ARE advocating their extermination. Enough said.

 
At 12:54 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Anyone else think it is a joke that confud was totally befuddled by my rant and could say nothing about it except some stock phrases ge picked up?"

Well I think there is a delicious irony and I'm sniggering . You guys don't do irony though.

 
At 1:02 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

So, you ARE advocating their extermination. Enough said.

conf, conf, man -- you're so desperate to snag a fish that your hooking on to logs, old boots, anything like a crack-head with a fishing pole or something. All your thrashing is scaring away the fish, clam down little puppy. You'll score a point sooner or later by sheer chance.

 
At 1:18 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Confused: What a joke.

What an argument. Night, night, confud.

(Sorry, goesh, couldn't resist.)

 
At 1:51 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

So, at the end of the day, US/Israel good, everone else bad. (Allies included)

Reading neoneocons essays one thing screams out: post traumatic stress disorder. But for gawds sake, whats the excuse for the rest of you?

Willfull denial, dissemination of silly stories, name calling, paranoia, demonization of everybody with a differing point of view, total inability to argue an actual proposition, parroting of the lunatic fringe 'media'.

And Sally! Sally Sally Sally. I am very very clearly far more widely read than you, you sweet thing. I take the time to read the right wing nutters (Sharon B. Glick anyone?) (That reminds me. Y-man the extremist right wing zionist nutters. Read the Jewish World News and tell me there isn't a lunatic fringe.) Sometimes the left lunatic fringe and very much in between. I won't name my favourites in the hope that serious moderate writers won't be branded leftist terrorist apologists.

I've actually been to a lot of these places rather than read about them in comic books. My country 's second closest neighbour is the world's largest Islamic state. I lost aquaintences in the WTC and Bali (that's a place OUTSIDE of america and there's a big book called an ATLAS at a bookstore near you, or maybe not, that has maps of OUTSIDE of america),
My ancestors, like most of yours, were living in straw huts and burning shite when the middle east had formal education, written language and running potable water. That is an important realization to make for your average western chauvanist. Have a bit of respect for your fellow man.

Oh yes and I've spent quite a bit of time in New England too. Nice place but too many christians for my liking. But I still have family there. They are blissfully ignorant of the outside world.

Unfortunately I've also been to Texas. If that is what you are defending then may your god help us all.

Sweet dreams little ones.

And Goesh, same to you, cheesebreath.

 
At 2:33 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

looks like i missed a lot of fun......reading through all this just reminds me what a dreary unimaginative bunch you are. But lets have a quick review of some of the gems.


...from yermadwnkr
No, but it will get rid of them (the palestinians). Presumably humans need more than 1,000 calories to survive daily.

wow racist and now advocating genocide. You agree with that neo?

...from gosh!

Sheesh! Confud, go fuck yourself, it's all that remains for you, there's nothing more for you any way you want to cut it- it's that simple, folks, really.

gosh! is all set for the invasion of iran. Has a little war chart for the den so he can move pins around on it and march up and down in his 101st fighting keyboardists uniform. Nasty little "investment" banker.

....immadasapanda
said right at the start

I'm going with Amir Taheri on this one, and accepting it until I see otherwise

well thats your neo cons for you. The MSM is biasedcommie islamofascist supporting scum until they say something you agree with, however wrong it might be. Then its all ok to believe it. Well you can't blame them as this is your strategy as well neo.

A mind is a difficult thing to change, especially when you have it firmly made up before you are aware of any of the facts.

...sappy said

the primary such cause of the palestinian situation is long-standing Western appeasement, driven both by a neurotic sense of cultural guilt and inferiority, as you yourself illustrate quite well, and I think as well by a real fear of the belligerence and potential for cultural psychosis of large segments of the Middle East in particular

so the main cause of violent palestinian action is that people in the west are supporting them? not the brutal life that is experienced by many young palestinians, the history of israeli oppression, everybody - includuing some arab countries - hoping they would just go away. You agree with that one neo? I bet you do.


...douglas says (why mock the name it is silly enough as it stands)

Why haven't the US just marched down through Central and South America in the last 60 years or so, instead of tolerating these bozos like Fidel and Hugo and all the rest in between? Why, if the world hates us so, and has for some time (9-11 aside), would we cae what the rest of the world thinks? Why do we host the UN in NYC?

Ahh, but I'll get no REAL answer will I?


ok real answer number 1

The american state has tried to get rid of both castro and chavez. Bay of Pigs? 2002 attempted coup? It did get rid of allende in chile and has consistently interefered in many othe rlatin american countries.


real answer number 2

The us governemnt is a democracy and it is not a monolithic institution. Historically organisations like the CIA have been up for adventuring abroad while most democratically elected politicians have been very wary of it. Large sections of the american public have always opposed this kind of interfernce and still do. The current unpopularity of GWBush illustrates this. As a neo con Bush is different and mroe likely to get involved in more military action abroad and then fall back on the "support our troops" or you are a traiitor type arguments.


...brat says
your shallowness clearly identifies you no comment needed here i think


...bit like jason baby here

What you write is the equivalent of a giant YEEAAGH!

great arguments boys

...the little apple thief says on the subject of immigrants contributing to europe

Selling Kef, Turkish hash, worthless hand drums and beads is an interesting contribution,
You agree with this sordid little bit of racism neo? Not worried that your neo-con frinds might not be just a tad unhinged?


except yermdwankr of course

Yes, yes, I know, I only let the demon yermadwankr when the End Times come. Which, given the recent comments about Iran, are close to be fullfilled


but i don't think me, confused, spanky or anybody else have to worry as this neo-con thing is on the wane. History is passing you kids by. Bush is deeply unpopular. the war is widely perceived as an inreasing and vague shambles. Time passes and so will you.

In the end neo it really doesn't matter if your mind changes as it is the economic and political realities on the ground which are important. I am sure you will remain here for a long time, but it will all become increasingly irrelevant. But maybe one day you will look back and wonder how you found yourself on the same team as this lot.

 
At 3:20 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

If those are your real answers, then you have a problem. You can no longer play the 'I dislike the American GOVERNMENT, but the American people are ok' game. You say we didn't just bomb the crap out of Castro, instead of supporting CUBANS trying to take back a government stolen from them by mass murderers like Che and Fidel because some of the American people would've been against it? So be honest for a change, you hate most of us, after all, we voted for Bush... Of course, you weren't really trying too hard at that 'it's the government not the people routine, as your Texas and New England comments demonstrate.

As for your notion that we're racist and insular, how do you explain the fact that 1 in 4 children born in California are now mixed-race? You don't understand US. We are more focused on assimilation than race or birthright.

Oh, and come on- Jenin, PNAC? That's Reynolds Wrap stuff... But as you said:
"A mind is a difficult thing to change, especially when you have it firmly made up before you are aware of any of the facts."

 
At 3:34 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

So, you ARE advocating their extermination. Enough said.

I don't think I was the one who brought up the idea of starving them to make them into Ghandis.

I take the time to read the right wing nutters (Sharon B. Glick anyone?)

Didn't he just say that American notions of Left and Right don't apply to Euros... but I suppose Euro notions of Left and Right applies to Amis.

People talking about the decrease of neo-conservatism, sounds to me like Kruschev talking about burying the US. I think it was the other way around.

 
At 4:11 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

How many times do you need to be told something before it sinks in? Maybe if I put it in comic form and e-mailed it to you?


Still waiting for all those debunking links by the way. I'll feel much better I'm sure when you can prove to me that Chatilla, Sabra, Jenin and the Armenian holocaust didn't happen. I'm sure your sources will be more credible than the IDF's own reports. And I guess Amnesty International and MSF must be a bunch of lefties as well.

 
At 6:27 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Confused: And Sally! Sally Sally Sally. I am very very clearly far more widely read than you, you sweet thing.

Ever notice that when someone in an argument feels they have to say something like they're "very very clearly far more widely read than you", they pretty much always aren't? What they pretty much always are, is desperate.

Poor confud -- slowly morphing into yet another troll clone before our eyes:

So, at the end of the day, US/Israel good, everone else bad. (Allies included)

(Hey, why not make that your mantra?! Whenever things get confusing for you, just keep murmuring it to yourself, over and over and over....)

 
At 7:51 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

oh you silly little neo-cons. seeing everything through the same uscentric prism.

Reminds me of the old joke of a muslim moving to belfast - the neighbours only wanted to know if he was catholic or protestant muslim. same with you clowns. Can't understand that there may be other ways to view the world that are equally valid to your own. But no, you will believe any old crap if it matches your world view and dismiss anything that doesn't as biased.

If neo is looking for a topic try Turkey. There is a nice complex situation. There are secular and democratic muslims who need to be encouraged......calling them all evil childkillers won't do this. Neither will bombing them. See what kind of simplistic response she can give to that one.

The world is so much more complex than you lot are.....but your day is done. Bush will get thrown out and neo-cons will become a strange historical oddity.

Good riddance to you. A spiteful bunch of narrow minded smug and arrogant little people.

 
At 10:14 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

You're ... well I don't know if there is anything lower than dumb. Maybe, mindless. It's like a blaring radio without any knobs.

 
At 10:36 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

You guys were quick off the mark spreading the latest "look they really are the Nazis!" slur. I guarantee this drivel will be quoted on right wing blogs as fact for the next 5 years.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060519/wl_mideast_afp/iranrightsreligion_060519200726

Golly, Iran has a jewish MP, who knew? Maybe this "black ops" slur will have a positive effect.

 
At 10:44 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

I stumbled across your blog while trawling for posts on this Iranian thing.

I have to say, I'm disturbed by your conversion. I am bemused that any rational person can possibly support Bush and his gang.

Here is a little something I recently stumbled across, in your capacity as a therapist, you will likely find it intruiging.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

 
At 10:54 AM, May 21, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

Neo, pardon my comment, but this section has become a garbage dump recently. My humble suggestion is that you enable comment moderation, and send notification of comments to an email address that you check every week or so.

There is no reason you should have to tolerate this type of detritus every time you take a day or two off.

Again, my apologies.

 
At 12:01 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 12:18 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"You guys were quick off the mark spreading the latest "look they really are the Nazis!" slur. I guarantee this drivel will be quoted on right wing blogs as fact for the next 5 years."

Did you read the update? The comments? EVERYONE is already recognizing that it is unsubstatiated. Please.

"Golly, Iran has a jewish MP, who knew?"

Yes, in a country where a supreme council of Mullahs decides who gets on the ballot or not, and then 'counts' the votes. I'm sure he speaks freely, and isn't a tool of the mullahs, or anything like that. But apparently to you it is meaningful? Perhaps you'd care to explain how, substantively, not 'symbolically'.

"I have to say, I'm disturbed by your conversion. I am bemused that any rational person can possibly support Bush and his gang."

'I'm sane and rational, and you're looney, just because you believe differently than I.'

Brilliantly tolerant and constructive.

I visted your blog briefly, you can do better than that. I also advise you to read around here a little before you say too much. Welcome to the debate.

 
At 2:52 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

aw pooor old al bin thinks the place is becoming a garbage dump just because people disagree with him....and he says "neo turn it off turn it off". This is the same guy who has a blog dedicated to robots he can have sex with....i am not making this up try this link

great friends neo

and dougless the point is that many people guessed this was unsubstantiated when it appeared, but that dont stop neo. It kicks the muslims so lets get it out there.

and bmcworldcitizen this kind of nonsense is the norm round here. If you want a bit of a cheap laugh read the whole "a mind is a difficult thing to change" stuff.....highly comical given the blind bigotry that passes for informed comment on here.

hey ho

 
At 4:20 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

But Sally, it is obvious. If you were widely read, you wouldn't make the blanket statements that you make. You wouldn't, couldn't just dismiss happenings like Chatilla and Sabra as "well debunked" constructs.

These things happened, they are well documented matters of historical record. Your pals in Israel have attacked EVERY one of their neighbours and Iraq. They are still hanging on to Syrian territory, still shelling South Lebanon, still sending Apache helicopters against stone throwers, still blowing up houses, still destroying water pumping stations, sewers and power lines. Still confiscating land, still sending "settlers" (ethnic cleansing) into the west bank, still refusing to allow UN peacekeepers, still refusing a cease-fire, still assassinating people, still expelling arabs, still poisoning tracts of arable land and still building their monument to oppression. All this is available in the serious press. They've ignored every UN resolution and they never honoured the Oslo accord, which was an effective surrender by buffoon Arafat.

Are these people any better than your client arab despots? I think not. And YOU are apologizing for them. Not me.

And then this.......

" But there is a serious question about the extent to which the people of these regimes do support the vicious, potentially genocidal views of their "despotic rulers"."

Did you think about that before you hit the post button?

 
At 4:54 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

Confused has pretty much completed his devolution into Just Another Troll, but playing the Whack-a-Troll game over this was just too much fun to ignore:

Confud, May 21, 5:20PM: Your pals in Israel have attacked EVERY one of their neighbours and Iraq. They are still hanging on to Syrian territory, still shelling South Lebanon, still sending Apache helicopters against stone throwers, still blowing up houses, still destroying water pumping stations, sewers and power lines. Still confiscating land, still sending "settlers" (ethnic cleansing) into the west bank, still refusing to allow UN peacekeepers, still refusing a cease-fire, still assassinating people, still expelling arabs, still poisoning tracts of arable land and still building their monument to oppression.

But,
confud, May 20, 11:25: They [the Palestinians] deserve some justice surely

Yes, confused, they surely do, and justice in some small part is exactly what the Israeli's are meting out. And more of the same is exactly what the Palestinians have to look forward to until they mend their ways. Because I believe the Palestinian people, however warped they've become through the vileness of their leaders, the cynicism of their arab neighbors, and the perversity of their Western enablers (yes, confud, I'm looking at you) are nonetheless as capable of regeneration as the German and Japanese people after WW2, I think and hope that they will eventually learn from this justice to put an end to their vicious and murderous culture, become industrious in their own land, and live in peace with their Jewish neighbors.

(BTW, what happened to Jenin in your list of Israeli "massacres"? Hmm?)

 
At 5:08 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Do people outside of America not learn that the US President is limited to 2 terms of 4 years each?

Bush will get thrown out and neo-cons will become a strange historical oddity.

Golly, Iran has a jewish MP, who knew?

I keep being reminded of the Left saying Karzai is a puppet government in Afghanistan. Why don't they apply their own analysis to their buddies in Iran?

I am bemused that any rational person can possibly support Bush and his gang.

Most people who will never consider supporting Bush has been proven scientifically to have no kindness nor amusement at all in those parts of their brains that are most active when thinking about Bush.

But apparently to you it is meaningful?

Any world government that supports Bush is not a world citizen and is also a puppet, anyone that fights Bush is a valid government.

They are expected to eventually pitch in as the workforce shrinks amid the dwindling and aging population.

You can always rely upon the Japanese to find a way out of any hellish problem they got. Hirohito found a way to salvage japan after the atom bombs were dropped, and Japan might solve their entire aging problem as well with robots. GOod stuff, Japan is always interesting. Then again, Korea's a bit weird, they must want to beat Japan or something at robotics.

It kicks the muslims so lets get it out there.

I thought the point was to kill Muslims, not to kick them while they're down?

All this is available in the serious press.

So, we now know he gets his info from the press. Not very reliable sources for a "well read person".

People will notice that Confud has stopped talking to me, Ymar, and prefers to go after easier prey, preferably ones that don't fight back hard.

 
At 5:41 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Yduzmybrainhurt said...

"People will notice that Confud has stopped talking to me, Ymar, and prefers to go after easier prey, preferably ones that don't fight back hard."

Actually I said this.....

"At 5:11 AM, May 21, 2006, confudeforeigner said...
How many times do you need to be told something before it sinks in? Maybe if I put it in comic form and e-mailed it to you?


Still waiting for all those debunking links by the way. I'll feel much better I'm sure when you can prove to me that Chatilla, Sabra, Jenin and the Armenian holocaust didn't happen. I'm sure your sources will be more credible than the IDF's own reports. And I guess Amnesty International and MSF must be a bunch of lefties as well."

You were probably out playing with your light sabre (killing the dark forces of Islam no doubt) at the time and forgot to check before posting.

Pistonwristedgibbon.

 
At 5:46 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Slappy said....


Yes, confused, they surely do, and justice in some small part is exactly what the Israeli's are meting out. And more of the same is exactly what the Palestinians have to look forward to until they mend their ways. Because I believe the Palestinian people, however warped they've become through the vileness of their leaders, the cynicism of their arab neighbors, and the perversity of their Western enablers (yes, confud, I'm looking at you) are nonetheless as capable of regeneration as the German and Japanese people after WW2, I think and hope that they will eventually learn from this justice to put an end to their vicious and murderous culture, become industrious in their own land, and live in peace with their Jewish neighbors."

Excellent.!!! Just one slight problem though. They don't actually have their land. Oh well.

And of course justice always comes at the end of the gun barrell doesn't it? Or is that just for Moslems? I forget. Oh I think so. What happens to the Christian Palestinians in all this justice meting?

 
At 5:50 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Sorry, missed this.

Slappy said.....(BTW, what happened to Jenin in your list of Israeli "massacres"? Hmm?)

Well I just plain forgot, but it is hardly a comprehensive list. For more information see the Amnesty International website, or read some authoritative recent books on the subject. A hint though. "journalists" working for FOX news aren't authoritative sources.

 
At 6:22 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

A hint though. "journalists" working for FOX news aren't authoritative sources.

Which translates as, anyone that disagrees with confud is never right.

 
At 7:11 PM, May 21, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

No, you can categorize the non serious media as being those who shirk their primary responsibilty of scrutinizing the centres of power and the people within, in the pursuit of pushing an agenda on behalf of any faction government or movement, and tailoring the news to further the aims of the clients agenda.

FOX news is infotainment at best, scurrilous trumpeting at worst. Murdoch has a long and inglorious history. It is all about ratings with Murdoch and thus the money that he can make. He doesn't even believe in the agenda.

 
At 12:10 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Coming from a supporter of the BBC, that doesn't seem very credible.

 
At 1:08 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

Look
The BBC (I suspect you'd find them and their pro-palestinian slant "authoritative"), after trumpeting the Jenin 'Massacre' backed down, although still asserting that it's a 'war crime' by the Israelis if civilians die because terrorists use civilians as human shields. Seems to me to be backwards logic.

So if Jenin was proven to be lied about dramatically by the Palis, why then should I believe anything they say about Sabra and Shatila?
or anything else for that matter, without concrete, forensic proof. What goes into those reports you love so much wouldn't convict a criminal of a street crime in court here.

Will you now back down and take Jenin off your list?

'...but that dont stop neoneoconned. It kicks the Americans so lets get it out there.'

 
At 3:02 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

"Human Rights Watch says at least 52 Palestinians died of whom 22 were civilians. Many of the civilians were killed wilfully and unlawfully the report says."

So, only 22 civilians can be proved to be killed but this is not a massacre eh? Israeli soldiers using women and children as human shields.

Read the IDF reports on the Chatilla and Sabra massacres.

The pro-Palestinian BBC? FFS you guys can't be serious.

And now I'm a "supporter" of the BBC? What are you on about now? How does one become a supporter of the BBC, and why would you think that I am one of these mythical beings? I think you are seriously deranged, little man, I really do.

 
At 3:56 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Report of the Commission of Inquiry into
the Events at the Refugee Camps in Beirut
(The Kahan Commission)

(February 8, 1983)

The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel. No Israeli was directly responsible for the events which occurred in the camps. But the Commission asserted that Israel had indirect responsibility for the massacre since the I.D.F. held the area, Mr. Begin was found responsible for not exercising greater involvement and awareness in the matter of introducing the Phalangists into the camps. Mr. Sharon was found responsible for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge when he approved the entry of the Phalangists into the camps as well as not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed. Mr. Shamir erred by not taking action after being alerted by communications Minister Zippori. Chief of Staff Eitan did not give the appropriate orders to prevent the massacre. The Commission recommended that the Defense Minister resign, that the Director of Military Intelligence not continue in his post and other senior officers be removed. Full text follows:

Seems you two eejits and the redoubtable Sloppy are denying what the Israelis can't. Hmmm. Before I came across this outrageously racist site I wouldn't have thought it possible that there were such sick stupid willfully ignorant people in the world. Your minds are as diseased as the terrorists. (Thats the real ones, not your imaginary ones, Sally)

 
At 4:36 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger neoneoconned said...

great argument dougless - trouble is you have me all mixed up with someone else. I don't offer kneejerk anti-us stuff the way you and neo scrabble around for anything that will prop up your simplistic black and white view of the world

 
At 5:27 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Monday, 29 April, 2002, 14:31 GMT 15:31 UK
Expert weighs up Jenin 'massacre'

Jenin: Palestinians say a massacre took place there
British military expert David Holley tells the BBC why he thinks there was not a massacre in the Jenin refugee camp and why he believes Israel is right to challenge the UN fact-finding mission.
Mr Holley, who is a Major in the British Territorial Army and a military adviser to Amnesty International, visited Jenin at the weekend.

What did you see in Jenin?

"There is an extensive area - about 200 metres (600ft) by about 100 metres (300ft) - that has been completely flattened. It is just like a building site or the aftermath of an earthquake. No houses, just rubble."


So what leads you to the conclusion that there was no massacre?

"I think massacre is a word that is too often used in these sorts of situations and it doesn't really help.

"What we have got here is possibly 54 bodies found so far, with possibly 20 or 30 unaccounted for but we can't really verify these figures until the whole site is cleared.

"Talking to people and talking to witnesses, even very credible witnesses, it just appears there was no wholesale killing.


The bodies are there to be seen


"Clearly the... civilians who died in the battle were caught in crossfire and there have been one or two civilians who were shot and executed."

How do you know they were civilians?

"The bodies are there to be seen. You have children, women, old men and cripples who have lived their lived in wheelchairs so clearly these were not fighters."

What about signs of war crimes?


Water and electricity was cut off to the town. That is a fact, it cannot be denied, and that is a crime

"The hard fact is that water and electricity were cut off to the town. That cannot be denied and that is a crime.

"Another fact is that for nine days no wounded were taken to the hospital, the Israelis blocked it.

"That is a fact, that is a war crime. You cannot stop medical services from administering to the wounded. These are facts we have at the moment that cannot be disputed and need to be investigated.

"Then we have testimonies from witnesses.

"There is no hard evidence, there is no footage for instance, yet. But some very credible witnesses have come forward who have told stories of how they have seen executions.

"They have seen snipers cutting people down in the streets with clear views of civilians trying to get away from the fighting. These are individual killings that need to be investigated."

Why is the Israeli Government objecting to the make-up of the fact-finding team?

"I think Israel has a very valid point. The UN team was going to be made up of UN civil servants, and I think you would then get a very one-sided view of what happened in Jenin.

"I think it is important that you do have military men and anti-terrorist experts on that UN commission.

"I think it is unfair for a lawyer to go to Jenin to then build up a military picture of what happened.

"You do need a soldier's perspective to say, well, this was a close quarter battle in an urban environment, unfortunately soldiers will make mistakes and will throw a hand grenade through the wrong window, will shoot at a twitching curtain, because that is the way war is."

 
At 6:19 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Getting back to the point......

Jewish MP denies Iran badge plan
From correspondents in Tehran
20may06
IRAN'S only Jewish MP strongly denied reports in a Canadian newspaper overnight that Iran may force non-Muslims to wear coloured badges in public so they can be identified.

"This report is a complete fabrication and is totally false," Maurice Motammed said in Tehran. "It is a lie, and the people who invented it wanted to make political gain" by doing so.

The National Post newspaper quoted human rights groups as saying that Iran's parliament passed a law this week setting a public dress code and requiring non-Muslims to wear special insignia.

Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians would be forced to wear a yellow, red or blue strip of cloth, respectively, on the front of their clothes, it said.

Mr Motammed said he had been present in parliament when a bill to promote "an Iranian and Islamic style of dress for women" was voted. "In the law, there is no mention of religious minorities," he added.

MPs representing Iran's Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian minorities sit on all parliamentary committees, particularly the cultural one, he said.

"This is an insult to the Iranian people and to religious minorities in Iran," he said.


And this is from one of Murdoch's rags too, so you can take it as gospel.

 
At 7:28 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7:31 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 7:59 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Dress codes and humiliating ones at that are old mandates of Islam ... it's been going on for the past 13 centuries. There are dress codes for Muslims and dress codes for non-Muslims. To re-emphasize the importance of dress codes with such vigor is a progressive move that Allah smiles upon. In Islam, the non-believer, according to the doctrine of Islam, are unclean beings on the level of pigs and dogs -- very different from any other ‘religion’. Soullessness is not a religion.

[9.95] They will swear to you by Allah when you return to them so that you may turn aside from them; so do turn aside from them; surely they are unclean and their abode is hell; a recompense for what they earned.

[10.100] And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.

[74.5] And uncleanness do shun,

REMEMBER: This is the Quran not the Bible. There is no revision in the Quran, no New Testament.

 
At 8:14 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

I'm pretty sure there is some nasty stuff in your silly book too. I can't quote them because I wouldn't allow one in my house. To me they are equally specious and repugnant.

The mullahs are no worse than some of your (US) nuttier bible bashers and there's a certain Mr Paisley in Northern Ireland that has disgusted me with his religious bigotry intolerance and incitement to violence for many a long year. And let us not forget those lovely Serbian Orthodox chaps just recently.

They all disgust me. Religious intolerance and chauvanism of all types is a blight on the world and you're just trying to tell me that yours is somehow justified but failing.

Proves nothing, you're clutching at straws to justify you're irrational fears. You're just a sook and a coward.

 
At 9:04 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

I'm pretty sure there is some nasty stuff in your silly book too. I can't quote them because I wouldn't allow one in my house.

If you don't know then hush up and listen.

BTW: I'm not religious, I don't go to church, I very rarely pray, though I have a high respect 'real' religion. My departure from the Left is a separtion sometimes one thread at a time.

 
At 9:12 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

nconned (aka spankee, elvis, proud neocon, etc., etc.): Good riddance to you. A spiteful bunch of narrow minded smug and arrogant little people.

confud: Before I came across this outrageously racist site I wouldn't have thought it possible that there were such sick stupid willfully ignorant people in the world. Your minds are as diseased as the terrorists.

Here's the funny and sad thing about trolls: they lose all personal identity as they blend into clones of one another -- this kind of "writing", for example, could be done faster, easier and better by a simple insult generator. Which, in point of fact, is about all they are. But not only do they lose their identity, they lose their wills as well -- no longer able not to "comment", they obsess over their target day and night, stuck to it like flies on flypaper.

 
At 9:24 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

You're just a sook and a coward.

You're a wee sook yourself, you are, mindlessly prattling the Arab anti-colonialist line. Have you read Edward Said or did you just look at the pictures? We're all so impressed.

Where have you been hiding your head. Have a look at the tactics used by the zionists in 1948. Terrorism in all its glory in anyones language. And the atrocities committed in the name of Israel since, Sharon et al refer to arabs as cockroaches.

'Terrorist' tactics have been used by the Arabs for centuries. It's how they fight, especially when their conventional military forces are way too weak to fight a real battle.

If Israel is the source of terrorism and conflict, then why are Islamists massacring moderate Muslims in Darfur? Why are Islamists murdering Hindus in India, Buddhists in Thailand, atheists in Chechnya, Christians in the Carribean? Why are Muslims murdering Muslims in the name of Allah?

Why did the so-called 'secular' Saddam Hussein murder hundreds of thousands of Kurds? Why are the Kurds more sympathetic to the Jews than they are to fellow Muslims who happen to be Arabs? The so-called Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a smaller part of a larger campaign of Arab/Islamist ethnic cleansing, a campaign that targets Christians, Jews, Kurds, Zoroastrians and moderate/liberal Muslims. It's old-fashioned imperialism. You're defending the imperialism you pretend to be fighting.

 
At 9:24 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

Proves nothing, you're clutching at straws to justify you're irrational fears. You're just a sook and a coward.

Sock it to 'em:-)

 
At 9:26 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

'Terrorist' tactics have been used by the Arabs for centuries. It's how they fight, especially when their conventional military forces are way too weak to fight a real battle.

Actually, it's how everyone fights when they are little guy.

What do define as a real battle? Overwhelming air superiority, or overwhelming armoured support?

It's a toss up as to which is the most heroic, isn't it?

 
At 9:30 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Sloppy you are the prize hypocrite of this board. When you've been presented with verifiable facts that don't suit your good v evil black v white view you are reduced to personal insult by calling your opponent "sympathizers" and "5th columnists" and "apologists" without any evidence or reason by logic to back those accusations up.
It is clear that we disagree on the methods to stop terrorism but to accuse us of being on the side of the terrorists is low indeed.
Your outright denial of historical facts is the intellectual equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nah nah nana nah I can't heeeeear you". Your little hissy fits a childish and pathetic.
You are siding willingly with a nutcase who gets his inspiration from Star Wars and espouses the righteous ideal of killing all 1.3 billion moslems in the world.
Get a grip and wake up to yourself.

 
At 9:41 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

confudforeigner is British (I think?) and I am Irish.

For a (mostly) glowing example of how to deal with terrorism, examine the relationship between Britian and Ireland from the late 1960's to today.

Ask yourself why, when the IRA, was bombing the heart out of British cities in the 70's and 80's, why the British did not simply carpet bomb Dublin, or invade the South?

Ask yourself what both countries would like today if that course of action had been taken?

Then learn the lesson the rest of the civilised world has learnt.

 
At 9:51 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Israel and the injustice being meted out on the Palestinians is absolutely the number one rallying cry for Muslim extremism because it can rightly IMO be held up as proof of western double standards and hypocrisy.

The Sudanese are fighting what they see as a seccessionist movement in the south of their country and yes other muslims are committing acts of barbarity all over the place, That doesn't mean either a) all muslims are "islamists" and by that I take to mean sectarian extremists, or b) that the Israelis are really quite nice chaps.

The Palestinians have never had an army as such and have little choice but to fight a guerilla war. They've been cast adrift by most of the lovely dictators in the arab states too don't forget.

Iraq under Saddam was most certainly a secular state, he kept the mullahs very much under the thumb. He killed way more shiite arabs than he killed Kurds but we don't like to talk about that because that was when he was our client, remember.

He murdered more shiites in the few months after the Kuwait thang after Bush1 kindly let the republican guards scamper off and then invited the Shiites to "rise up", which they jolly well did and were left to the ravages of Saddams military might.

And don't forget the marsh arabs who he exterminated in his US/Saudi funded 8 year war to destabilise those nasty mullahs in Iran who kicked our good friend the Shah Palahvi and his peacock throne out of their lives.

I'm not defending anything of the sort. I'm saying that the Palestinians deserve some justice.

Don't try that nonsense tactic of with us or agin us with me. That is for dolts like GWB.

 
At 9:51 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

Actually, it's how everyone fights when they are little guy


No, it's how totalitarians fight when they're the little guy and/or the big guy. If 'everyone' resorted to terrorism when they felt 'little' or oppressed, there would be no world to speak of right now.

Andre Glucksman killed the 'one man's freedom fighter..' routine with this essay here:

"…what do extremist ideologies like the communism or Nazism of yesteryear and the Islamism of today have in common? After all, they support ostensibly very different ideals – the superior race, mankind united in socialism, the community of Muslim believers (the Umma). Tomorrow, it could be altogether different ideals: some theological, some scientific, others racist. But the common characteristic is nihilism."

The root element is the attitude that anything goes, particularly when with regard to ordinary people: I can do whatever I want, without scruples. Goehring put it like this: my consciousness is Adolf Hitler. Bolsheviks said: man is made of iron. And the Islamists whom I visited in Algeria said that you have the right to kill little Muslim children, in order to save them."

The nihilistic philosophy that a certain group of terrorists/oppressors can do whatever they want to "save" their society will eventually destroy the society. Glucksman calls this "belligerent hubris"

Wherever you go, this belligerent hubris is considered lethal. In the huts of the Amazon, young men are taught to conquer this capacity for excessive violence. You can fight together, but you cannot fight in any way that comes to hand, and you don’t set out to fight just anyone. The same idea occurs in the teachings of the Greeks, the paidera. All European education is based on the same principle.

All European education used to be based on that principle.

Most people are repulsed by terrorism for the same reason we’re repulsed by cannibalism and incest. It’s taboo, a crime against humanity, abhorrent because it can destroy a whole community, not just individual lives.

Society can survive war. War follows the established rules. Resistance movements target enemy combatants and their infrastructure. Resistance movements like the American Revolution don't destroy a society. Frequently they create a better society.

In contrast, terrorists target toddlers, genocidal dictators target thousands of unarmed civilians. They don’t do this because they’re following rules, they’re doing it because they want to do it and no one will stop them.

A society built on terrorism or genocide becomes a culture of death. We saw what life was like under Taliban rule. We saw Palestinian society under Arafat, we see the genocide and slavery in the Sudan.

The goal of 'little guy' terrorists is to gain political power. When we give them political power, we lose the war.

For a (mostly) glowing example of how to deal with terrorism, examine the relationship between Britian and Ireland from the late 1960's to today.

By giving political power to the IRA, Britain lost the war against terrorism. Britain also gave control of Mecca and Medina to the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, a group that most Muslims loathe and regard as totalitarian/terrorist. Terrorists who were expelled from Egypt, Yemen and the Sudan have found a happy, welfare-subsidized home in Britain.

The British know as much about dealing with terrorism as they know about fine food and dental care. If we follow British advice in regards to terrorism, we're doomed.

 
At 9:51 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

I am not British.

 
At 9:59 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Society can survive war. War follows the established rules. Resistance movements target enemy combatants and their infrastructure. Resistance movements like the American Revolution don't destroy a society. Frequently they create a better society.



Well lets stick to the established rules then shall we. The general thinking here amongst your friends is taht the US and Israel aren't bound by any rules. International law, the Geneva Conventions etc are optional and UN Security Council resolutions are only valid against your enemies and if you can't get one by force of argument who cares? We'll go it alone anyhow. Yeeha.

 
At 9:59 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Edward Said: The Last Interview

I have this video but I haven't watched it -- I'm going to watch it now :)

 
At 10:00 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

The British know as much about dealing with terrorism as they know about fine food and dental care. If we follow British advice in regards to terrorism, we're doomed.

Well as an citizen of a country largely at peace with itself, with a GDP on par with the US, living within the peaceful environs of the EU, you look like the nihilist to me.

In point of fact, I agree with you here : The nihilistic philosophy that a certain group of terrorists/oppressors can do whatever they want to "save" their society will eventually destroy the society. Glucksman calls this "belligerent hubris"

Except I see the americans as that minority in global society willing to destroy it to save it.

Force is the way small children choose to resolve differences, not adults.

 
At 10:13 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Well as an citizen of a country largely at peace with itself, with a GDP on par with the US, living within the peaceful environs of the EU, you look like the nihilist to me.

Heaar hear. (I'm just not in the EU.)

 
At 10:17 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh, and well done Munster.

 
At 10:20 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

The general thinking here amongst your friends is taht the US and Israel aren't bound by any rules. International law, the Geneva Conventions etc are optional and UN Security Council resolutions are only valid against your enemies and if you can't get one by force of argument who cares?

Force is the way small children choose to resolve differences, not adults.

Are we supposed to accept the UN as a 'moral force' in the world? With their history of child abuse, tolerance of genocide, and general corruption, they're less 'moral' than John Gotti's crew.

I see that you're both in agreement about violence. It's always baad, even in self defense.

Speaking of general incompetence in dealing with violence, crime and terrorism, why don't we talk about the British attitude towards self defense. It's 'violent', so therefore it's bad.

That attitude isn't working out very well for you, is it? Britain's crime rate is worse than America's.

Have you outlawed kitchen knives and hoodies yet?

I know you're scared by self-defense, war, or anything that sounds sooo violent, but that attitude is less than helpful. I think you mean well, but why don't you concentrate your efforts on things you do well. Like, I don't know, comedy? Cricket?

 
At 10:29 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Which part of "I am not British" didn't you understand?

 
At 10:39 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Are we supposed to accept the UN as a 'moral force' in the world?

Everyone wants reform of the UN, but the US would never accept the reforms that smaller countries would want and need for their security. It is important to remember that the UN is a body made up of constituent nations who decide it's actions. The US is one of those and indeed has the most power within it.

Most of the world see the US under Bush as the biggest threat to peace and most people are coming to the realization that Israel is the worst terrorist state. It only stays viable with massive US funding and escapes censure via use of the veto. A power most countries would like to see abolished.

You can't starve it, render it ineffective and then bully it into acting as a tool of US hegemony whilst attacking it at every opportunity and expect it to be effective. It is a very convenient whipping boy though.

 
At 10:46 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger Sally said...

For anyone other than trolls still reading this thread, it might be useful to set the record straight re: the Jenin "massacre" and other similar "incidents" on the part of Israeli forces. In large part this is because these events are instructive in a variety of ways about the tactics and responses of both sides in the larger war on Islamism.

Jenin had for some time been a major base from which Palestinian terrorists launched attacks that deliberately set out to kill as many unarmed and unwarned people, including women, children and handicapped, as they possibly could -- some examples just before the battle of Jenin include the Moment cafe massacre of Mar 9/02 in which 11 people were murdered, the Matza restaurant massacre of Mar 31/02 that slaughtered 15, and the Passover massacre in the Park Hotel in Netanya, that murdered 30. To this and much more, Israel eventually responded by attacking one of the primary bases of the killers in April of 2002, and by the middle of that month had gained control of the town. In the fighting, Israel had deliberately put its own soldiers' lives at greater risk in order to minimize casualties among non-combatants (though of course in fighting terrorists anyone able to walk or talk is a potential combatant), and as a result lost 23 of their own people, 13 in one ambush that had been planned precisely to take advantage of Israeli concerns for civilians.

Palestinian terrorists and their Western helpers were ready well before the battle to use accusations of "massacre" as part of their larger PR campaign against the Israelis, and they put this campaign into full gear very quickly: spokesmen first claimed that over 250 were killed, then "500 or more", then that Israel was digging mass graves for 900, and then a general assertion that "thousands" had died. These claims were amplified and spread around the world by sympathetic Western media, only too willing to believe lies and exaggerations from the murderous Palestinians, but entirely skeptical of Israeli accounts. In the end, however, it was impossible to avoid the conclusion: 75 total dead, including the 23 Israeli soldiers, about 30 Palestinian terrorists, and 22 Palestinian civilians. Yes, despite the Israeli efforts, some civilians were killed and wounded, which is a feature of any war but a tragedy nonetheless.

It's simply not possible for anyone not severely morally impaired to compare this action to the deliberate bombing of restaurants, buses, and weddings, and conclude that they're morally equivalent. That so many on the left do exactly that, however, is evidence that one of two conditions must be true: either they are indeed severely morally impaired -- quite possibly true of the bulk of them who are weak and impressionable creatures, frightened by the murderous violence of the terrorists into abandoning what moral scruples they ever had -- or they are themselves on the side of the terrorists, and willing to brazen out bare-faced lies in order to provide cover for the murderers they covertly admire and support. And that's no doubt the case with a goodly number of Western "apologists", including our incipient troll, confud, for example (who, by the way, is an Ozzie).

 
At 10:46 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

Which part of "I am not British" didn't you understand?

Oooops I am sorry about that. Look lads he's not British, that was rumour that I started. I'm Irish, I live in Sweden and I find confudeforeigner's attitudes closely mirror my own.

By all means have a go at Ireland or Sweden, I'm sure there is some irrelevant but damning factoid you can dredge up.

 
At 10:50 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

I know you're scared by self-defense, war, or anything that sounds sooo violent, but that attitude is less than helpful. I think you mean well, but why don't you concentrate your efforts on things you do well. Like, I don't know, comedy? Cricket?

This is obviously directed at the British but neither of us are. (Refer to my handy hint elsewhere about a big book called an ATLAS)

That aside, does it really do your argument justice to be deriding your allies? Blair spent pretty much all his political capital on supporting your little Texan fruitcake. Nobody really knows why given that the case for war was obviously spurious but I suspect his deeply held catholocism, a desire to cement ties with the US and a promise of progress in the Israeli/ Palestinian debacle were factors. Haha.

Well, I guess he has his catholocism left.

 
At 10:54 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

First principles Sally, you can't just post a rush of text without some sources.

I'm pretty certain I don't beleive a word you say (not because you are a purposefulliar, just misguided), but I'd believe some neutral sources.

How about some ... or did you make that up?

Foxnews, freerepublic or powerline are no, no's I'm afraid.

 
At 10:56 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Some common propaganda lines from the, now nutty, Left.

Good vs Evil. Anyone who is an underdog is Good, except if it is America or other non-white people.

Underdogs that are non-white and have been abused by the West= Good.

Israeli atrocities. It's not the bully beating on a defenseless kid, it is the defenseless kid beating on the bully cause the kid took away the baseball bat from the bully. That kind of logic.

There's a bunch of other stuff, but I'm not gonna bother writing it down.

US terrorizes, Anyone else that fights US and Israel and the West, is a guerrila.


Then learn the lesson the rest of the civilised world has learnt.

That might be more convincing had not America been protecting Europe's ass during the 80s.

Israel and the injustice being meted out on the Palestinians is absolutely the number one rallying cry for Muslim extremism because it can rightly IMO be held up as proof of western double standards and hypocrisy.


The only proof I see is that people like Confud feel so guilty about shafting it to the little guy, they're willing to tolerate lots of heinous things to get rid of their guilt, regardless of who gets killed in the process. People without a conscience are anti-social. People with a conscience willing to do anything to shut it down, aren't any better.


I'm not defending anything of the sort. I'm saying that the Palestinians deserve some justice.


They deserved a swift kick in the ass, but Israel was too kind to give it to the spoiled Palestinians, and now we have what we have.

Except I see the americans as that minority in global society willing to destroy it to save it.

Anyone ever feel like we're in the twilight zone?

Which part of "I am not British" didn't you understand?

The not part. There's only like two choices. Canada or Australia. And they are even more British than the British in their culture.

 
At 11:04 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Oh those brave Israeli boys and their chivalry. I take it all back.

Actually I don't, sloppy. You'll have to do better I'm afraid. It is clear propoganda when you use terms like 'murderous' Palestinians ambushing 'brave' Israelis.

Well, those brave Israelis were in tanks and bulldozers and apache helicopters firing missiles at people largely armed with ancient Kalashnikovs. I note it didn't tell us about the old man in the wheel chair run over by a tank did it?

Have a look around Sally and get a balanced view. All you are doing is looking for propaganda to suit your unchangeable beliefs. Now come back when you grow up.

 
At 11:10 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

Most of the world see the US under Bush as the biggest threat to peace and most people are coming to the realization that Israel is the worst terrorist state. It only stays viable with massive US funding and escapes censure via use of the veto. A power most countries would like to see abolished

When the world's people elect you as their spokesman? Most of the world's media, including the US media, sees Bush as the biggest threat. In contrast, most of the 6 billion people out there don't give a damn about Bush, the UN or Israel. If they're angry at the US, it's because they tried to get a green card and failed.

If smaller countries want more control over their lives, they should stop expecting the US or the UN to solve all of their problems. They should try to help themselves. The UN is not the world's mommy and neither is the US.

 
At 11:12 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Yduzhisbrainfart,

your a child. All you are doing is inventing positions that don't really exist so that you can (in your own very small way) deride them. Give up. You're not fooling anyone.

Oh, maybe Sally the nonracist zionist or nihimyfoot who has the cops phone mumber pinned to his kitchen door in case of rowdy teenagers are fooled. but that ain't avictory in any man's language.

Onward neocon soldiers! Foooor ward March!

 
At 11:12 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

Anyone ever feel like we're in the twilight zone?

All the time. Ever since GWB and his band of homocidial incompetents hijacked the worlds largest economy, and most powerful military.

It's a dystopian nightmare.

It'll be a great day when education gets all the money it wants and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy bombers. ~Author unknown, quoted in You Said a Mouthful edited by Ronald D. Fuchs

Cool quote eh?

 
At 11:15 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

Blair spent pretty much all his political capital on supporting your little Texan fruitcake. Nobody really knows why given that the case for war was obviously spurious but I suspect his deeply held catholocism, a desire to cement ties with the US and a promise of progress in the Israeli/ Palestinian debacle were factors. Haha.

Well, I guess he has his catholocism left.

Are you talking about big or little C catholicism here?

Blair spent pretty much all his political capital on supporting your little Texan fruitcake

Blair lost most of his political capital on his domestic failure - mostly due to the mess he made of the criminal justice system:

Mr Blair, who promised in 1994 to be “tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime” will say that most people do not think that Labour has made Britain safer or fairer.

The Prime Minister, who promised yesterday to consider new legislation to stop offenders taking advantage of the Human Rights Act, will admit that the justice system is far from what voters want.

Speaking at the launch of Let’s Talk, a Labour consultation exercise, Mr Blair is expected to say: “I believe people want a society without prejudice but with rules; rules that are fair; that we all play by; and rules that when broken carry a penalty. The truth is most people don’t think we have such a society.

The Human Rights act was one of those EU tolerant/multi-culti things that encourages tolerance of crime. It's not a coincidence that crime rates are rising throughout the EU.

If you tolerate and appease crime, you get more crime. If you tolerate and appease terrorism, you get more terrorism.

 
At 11:16 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger bmcworldcitizen said...

The UN is not the world's mommy and neither is the US.

Well that's certainly true.

The UN is the mommy, and the US is the daddy, a deranged abusive daddy. Daddy is very angry, VERY ANGRY indeed.

Now daddy has to hit you because you've been bad. VERY BAD. You made me hit you, I didn't want to, but YOU ALWAYS FORCE ME.

Mommy looks on .... wringing her hands helplessly.

 
At 11:18 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger maryatexitzero said...

It'll be a great day when education gets all the money it wants and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy bombers

That's almost as deep as 'visualize world peace'.

Are you seriously this whifty or are you just doing an odd parody?

 
At 11:19 AM, May 22, 2006, Blogger confusedforeigner said...

Most of the world's media, including the US media, sees Bush as the biggest threat. In contrast, most of the 6 billion people out there don't give a damn about Bush, the UN or Israel. If they're angry at the US, it's because they tried to get a green card and failed.

Oh thats right. It's the medias fault. This great left wing propoganda machine that just happens to be mostly owned by largely right wing plutocrats. Amazing.

Oh and we're back on Luke Skywalker's proposition. Everyone wants to be you and their jealous of your money and power.

Utter tosh. I'm sure plenty of 3rd world people would love to live their for the better prospects and consumer goods, (oh and yhey probably aspire to plastic breast implants to raise their self esteem and look forward to having regular psychiatry sessions as a status symbol too) but most of the rest of us are pretty comfortable being outside the nuthouse while kids like you have any say.

 

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