Tuesday, June 13, 2006

On a Gaza beach: what hath conspiracy theories wrought?

Conspiracy theories are widespread and exceedingly popular. They appeal to the all-too-human need to make order out of chaos, and to assign blame to a convenient and/or strategic scapegoat. They arise spontaneously, or they can be manipulated for political and propaganda reasons.

I've noted that, in my lifetime, the beginning of the extreme popularity of conspiracy theories seems to have been the JFK assassination, in which a charismatic and powerful President was blown away before our very eyes by what appeared to have been a protagonist too lowly and insignificant to have been worthy of the deed (I've written at greater length on this topic here).

But conspiracy theories have a long and illustrious history. One only has to look at the antiquity of anti-Semitism, just to give one example, to understand that. The blood libel, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion--there's no dearth of illustrations on that score. And, to be equal-opportunity about it, conspiracy theories exist on both sides. I was appalled, for example, by the "Clinton killed Vince Foster" garbage from segments of the right not so very long ago.

No, unfortunately, conspiracy theories are not the sole province of one side or another; they appeal to something deep within human nature. However, that fact shouldn't keep us from attempting, as best we can, to evaluate the truth or falsehood of conspiracy claims--because, just as not all conspiracy claims are automatically true, not all claims are automatically false, either. The situation resembles the old saying, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

How does this all relate to the deaths on the Gaza beach, and the way they are being reported?

In evaluating such incidents, sorting out fact from fiction, and then coming to conclusions, we must rely on Arab reports vs. Israeli reports. In the present case, initial claims from the Arab side are that the deaths were a result of Israeli shells. However, the evidence from an IDF report analyzing, among other things, the content of the scrapnel, indicates non-Israeli origins for the blast.

If the IDF reports are true, this will never convince the unconvinced. Because the power of propaganda is almost immeasurably large, and (in the words of Churchill) a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to put its pants on.

In this case--as in all cases of investigations--one has to believe in the veracity of those issuing the report to be convinced of anything by it. If a person believes that Israel is a Nazilike state bent on the conspiratorial, racist, and evil destruction of the Palestinians, then how could an IDF report convince that person otherwise? Not possible. Even though the initial reports blaming Israel were pretty much nothing more than rumors, and the IDF report used forensics and science--which should ordinarily trump rumors--accepting the report still depends on believing that the IDF and Israel itself are not engaged in bending the truth for their own purposes.

So there's an intrinsic problem in a report from any investigation (whether it be the Warren Commission, the OJ Simpson police, or anyone else) if it comes up with a finding that goes against the conspiracy grain in which so many believe. And that fact is relied on by anyone who wishes to spread a rumor for strategic reasons.

So, is Hamas trying to exploit some tragic deaths that may indeed have been caused by Palestinian mines, in order to stir up more anti-Israel feeling, both internally and around the world? To believe this would, of course, be to believe in still another conspiracy--this one on the part of the Palestinians (or, to be more exact, on the part of some Palestinians). But the evidence that has emerged so far from the competing Arab and Israeli "narratives"--as opposed to the rumors--points in that direction. And in evaluating that evidence one must take into account previous false propaganda campaigns on the part of the Palestinians that have been effectively proven as such: the initial inflated reports on Jenin, and Mohammad al-Durah's staged footage (for an in-depth discussion of the latter, please take some time to peruse the detailed information at Second Draft).

For many years now, it's been clear that the Palestinian authorities and press are among the world's best purveyors of propaganda, and that we--and the Israelis--are quite poor at responding to it (I am not using the word "propaganda" in a solely pejorative sense here, by the way; I'm using it as I've defined it in a previous post: "information spread to influence a populace towards a certain opinion").

I'm going to quote the post of mine further on the topic of propaganda:

Propaganda, by its very nature, is of course not a reasoned and leisurely debate in which both sides are given equal time and equal measure. Neither is it an academic exercise in politically correct fairness, nor a well-intentioned effort in being kind to the other side. It is most-decidedly one-sided. But the best propaganda is truthful, especially in this day of internet fact-checking. The best propaganda understands the arguments of the other side and counters them effectively. But all propaganda does have one thing in common: a conviction that it is acceptable to use it.

By definition, an IDF report about scrapnel and shells cannot possibly have the propaganda power of photos and video of grieving children and bodies on a beach. That is a simple fact, one the Palestinians have learned to exploit, most especially with al Durah. In that affair, Israel initially claimed possible responsibility, before a number of reports (including those from German and even French media) exonerated them and indicated that the al Durah footage was suspect--and that the most likely possibility was, if the boy was killed at all, that it was at the hands of Palestinians.

That in and of itself, however, smacks of a conspiracy theory, and an especially horrific one at that. Such a chain of events seems so much more far-fetched than the idea that Israel might have killed the boy, either purposely or accidentally (and yes, there's no doubt that Israel sometimes does cause the death of innocent children as collateral damage--which is quite different from purposely targeting them).

And yet it is my contention that any fair-minded person who takes a good look at the evidence can only conclude that this far-fetched chain of events--false claims in the Durah case, and even the possibility of deliberate staging--is true. And that means that the fair-minded person comes to the conclusion that the al Durah incident did represent a conspiracy of sorts. Does that mean that the Gaza incident is the same? Not at all. But it means that, until further notice, it must be taken with a grain of salt and an open mind.

The al Durah affair, which was especially influential in Europe, could not have been effective as propaganda without the cooperation of some in the French press, in particular reporter Charles Enderlin, who was not present at the shooting but who edited the footage shot by a Palestinian stringer and who did the voiceover blaming the Israelis. This is what Enderlin had to say in his own defense about his rush to judgment, after so much criticism was mounted against him:

He insisted that he stated that the bullets were fired by the Israelis for a number of reasons: First, that he trusted the cameraman (Abu Rhama) who, he said, had made the initial claim during the broadcast, and had worked for France 2 for 17 years, and later had it confirmed by other journalists and sources, and the initial Israeli statements. He also stated that the IDF never asked his team to collaborate on an inquiry, even though they had written to the IDF spokesman proposing they do so. Second, that the idea of the IDF shooting al-Durrah corresponded with what Enderlin saw as "the reality of the situation not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank"...

Another French journalist, La Conte, responded as follows: "I find this, from a journalistic point of view, worrying." It smacks, among other things, of the somewhat Ratherian claim that the truth or falsehood of certain facts is not as important as the point of view they express. That this is not what journalism is about ought to go without saying. But perhaps it needs saying, once again.

The IDF appears to have learned from the al Durah incident. This time they've been much quicker to launch an investigation, rather than to assume that initial reports from the scene were correct and to shoulder the blame. Time and the preponderance of evidence will reveal the truth or the falsehood of the Israeli vs. the Palestinian claims on the matter.

And what has the press learned? That remains to be seen.

78 Comments:

At 5:24 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

I am sorry neo but this is pompous nonsense. You accuse those whose opinions differ from you of being the victims of slick Palestinian propaganda yet blithely include;

the evidence from an IDF report analyzing, among other things, the content of the scrapnel, indicates non-Israeli origins for the blast.

a few modifiers in there hardly disguises the gleeful way you grasp at any straw to prop up your world view.

 
At 5:29 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Much as you despise the MSM I urge you to listen to today's edition of the PM programme from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/pm/?focuswin
Listen to the account of the munitions specialist.

It is also worth listening to the story of the Israelis being attacked by Palestinian Rockets in teh Gaza strip as to the motives forIDF attacks. The process is a cycle of violence which needs to be stopped. Not justified or explained away and all blamed on one side.

 
At 5:39 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

and even if your version of events turns out to be accurate just look at the headlines from this anti-MSM Israeli site http://www.debka.com/

Eleven Palestinians killed when two Israel Air Force rockets struck a Palestinian van heading for a N. Gaza launch site Monday noon

June 13, 2006, 9:48 PM (GMT+02:00)

The first rocket killed the three-man Islamic Jihad squad. The second, according to IDF forces, hit a group of “civilians” attempting to retrieve the new long-range Grad 122 rockets in the van. The rockets were destroyed. But meanwhile a crowd had gathered and Palestinian bystanders including two children were killed and 30 people were injured, four critically by the exploding rocket.


Second shooting attack in 48 hours on Highway 443 north of Jerusalem seriously wounds Israeli civilian



The time for military restraint is over – Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz



what a mess. And what is the neo con solution? zero tolerance to the Palestinians?

It needs some thought neo

- sorry this is all so lengthy but this had a big impact on me -

cue the shit throwing monkeys calling me a terrorist sympathiser and the palestinians untermensch

 
At 5:44 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger neo-neocon said...

I want to remind all to please ignore trolls. I know it's a great temptation to feed them, but please avoid it.

 
At 5:47 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

ok then ignore me but read this from the Jerusalem Post link put up by neo

Peretz and Halutz did show signs of disagreement after they were both asked separately if they would be willing to allow an international third party to inspect the shrapnel sample taken from one of the wounded. Peretz said he would consider the possibility but later, after he had already left the briefing, Halutz was asked the same question by the foreign press and said he was confident with the IDF's internal probe and that there was no reason to cast doubt in its professionalism.

In Gaza, Human Rights Watch military expert Marc Garlasco inspected the shrapnel at the scene and saw the wounded. He concluded that the blast was caused by an Israeli shell. However, he held open the slim possibility that it was planted there by Palestinian militants, though fragment patterns did not back that.


if they are so certain why not let someone else have a look then neo?

or is a mind far too difficult a thing to change when it is so firmly decided?

 
At 5:53 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger gcotharn said...

I once skimmed a book on the Vince Foster death. It certainly did look like it might have been murder - IF the "facts" in the book were correct. I formed no opinion, but just filed the info away, as a pleasant, mindless diversion during a day at the beach.

I was reminded of the Foster book a few years later, upon reading a book about the murder of my cousin. I happened to have attended, a decade before, the entire two week trial of my cousin's husband. He was very, very guilty - even though the case was circumstantial, as the prosecution had no "smoking gun." He was sentenced to life in prison(his second felony conviction - he had previously been convicted of conspiring to kill his secretary's husband).

The book about his murder trial painted him as an innocent man. The book misrepresented, or completely lied about, maybe half a dozen tiny details about the case. As a result, the book was able to make a convincing case for his innocence.

A similar thing could've happened in the Foster book - we don't know. A similar thing could happen in any propaganda piece - including stories in the major media. Change, or skew, a tiny thing here and there, and you've got a completely different story.

Postscript: My cousin's husband was given a life sentence for murdering my cousin. The book about the case was used as part of his appeal to be paroled, after serving 19 years in the penitentiary. A three person board granted his parole. After, one parole board member told my aunt that she read the book, and didn't believe he could've really killed my cousin. She also had no awareness that he had been convicted of the second felony - for conspiracy to kill the secretary's husband. A true story. I suspect there's a lot of incompetence on parole boards across the country. We might consider paying parole board members decent salaries, and providing them with research assistants. Might be worth the investment.

 
At 6:02 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger uhuru1701 said...

neoneoconned's response seems to blame the blogger for the content of the IDF report. Why is that?

If you think Palestinians never manipulate the media, you really should check out "Pallywood," from the Second Draft website at http://www.seconddraft.org/cur_invest.php

And, aside from terrorists with an anti-Jewish anti-Israel agenda and those who support their cause, if there really is anyone left on the planet who was gullible enough to fall for the faked Al-Dura hooey, try these places in cyberspace to brush up on reality-recognition skills:

When Pictures Lie
http://jewishworldreview.com/david/gelernter091205.php3

Who caused the televised death of 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura? From PalestineFacts.org
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_dura.php

Now, a just-completed, long-term journalistic investigation conducted in France concludes that the Mohammed al-Dura affair was actually a piece of Palestinian theater – similar to the dramatic Palestinian funeral processions last April after the Israeli incursion into the Jenin refugee camp. During that public spectacle, a martyred "corpse" twice fell off the stretcher, only to hop back up and retake his place in the procession. The Palestinians had claimed 3,000 deaths in Jenin – the actual toll was 52.
FROM: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31363

I have dozens more links but I'm not here to spam someone else's blog. Suffice to say, yes, the Palestinians and other assorted Jew-hating entities in this world are not above *GASP!* telling a lie.

There's already been numerous articles from numerous sources published in the mainstream media about the Gaza incident which now is squarely blamed on Palestinian terrorists who were intent on firing rockets into Israel and killing innocent people there.

That Israel is able to back this claim up with forensic evidence just gets the Israel-haters' panties in a twist.

Doesn't change the truth.

 
At 6:34 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ron said...

Conspiracy thoeries are to fear, uncertainty and doubt what fairy tales are to romantic love. The story one truly needs to believe in.

 
At 6:57 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

The Palestinian terrorist will do a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g to attack Israel. So much for the cease fire! Ridiculous. If they will explode their brothers, sisters, and children -- they will certainly blow up neighbors and try to make it look like Israel did it. The Gitmo detainees that committed suicide? The same thing -- It was simply an attack. The MSM portrays them as the tortured and the U.S. as the torturer. [It all wings back to HATE BUSH! HATE BUSH! HATE BUSH! So Enlightening.

 
At 7:18 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger nyomythus said...

Hey neo-neocon,

Speak of trolls, while researching the Ann Coulter story today, I crawled right into a troll nest. There were many comments about the coming next “American Civil War” and “splitting America in two”. it reminded me of why I have come to reject Liberalism as a political philosophy. As a hardcore Leftist I had no love for Conservatives or Christians, and admit that when I was irreconcilably pissed off I would advocate ugly things for both, but if push would have come to shove I would not have supported the destruction of America, I would have advocated the rounded up all the Conservatives and Christians as a, sort of, litmus test to spare me [and my kind]; Hey I’m Liberal, I’m open-minded, I’m reformable, I can convert to Islam or Communism. If you've never been there its a window into the Leftist mind. I’m just glad I opened my eyes.

 
At 8:38 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Horsey said...

Speaking of Conspiracy Theories, my mother and her classmates, all women older than fifty, all college educated, were sitting in my living room talking in all seriousness about how all the Jews got emails on 9/11 warning them to stay away from the towers. I erupted in anger, because I felt as ethnic minorities in this country, our only hope is that this society remains an objective and rationalist one. To see them all, immigrants every single one of them, doctors, engineers and architects, taking this hogwash so seriously, made me so mad that I said the F word in front of my mother and all her friends.

I tried to talk to the women, I explained how it was virtually impossible to send warning emails out without having a leak of some kind. (Remember the failure of the Guy Fawkes gun powder plot.) But there is something very seductive about vast secret world-spanning conspiracies. It's almost as if the complicated world we live in is too boring for people, they want to believe there is some shitty hollywood like plot moving things in the background.

My mother nodded and finally agreed with me, but many of the other women did not.

There is not a lot you can do when you are a young brown atheist. There is too much retardation in this world to change everyone. Me and my brother just work on our parents and cousins--that is enough for one lifetime.

 
At 11:12 PM, June 13, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I really wanted to be the first commenter, so I could say "Uho, Neo has done it again, prepare for orc onslaught and man the walls, fellow men of the West!"

Kcom, it makes more sense if you take it as being the Left is responsible for Israel and Palestine, because the Left is richer and more powerful. Since the Left believes that they are powerful enough to dominate both, they also believe the actions of both are due to their lack of "domination> So they feel guilty about both, and therefore blame that which they have trouble cotrolling, Israel.

We still got a few hours before New Zealand comes online. Then the fury shall be plain onto scariness.

I suggest to Nyo to read this post that bookworm did, and specifically thecomments and dates. Link

 
At 12:54 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

well i hope all you smug "anti-trolls" feel pleased with yourselves. Watching you twist yourselves into knots to

1. Defend Israel no matter what

2. Say that by criticising Israel you are supporting terrorism

3. Blame the victims of violence for the violence

4. And then gleefully welcome more violence for people in places where you don't have to live.So much for the cease fire! Ridiculous. Yeah right little apple thief. Stop all this peace crap and get back to bloodshed and mayhem - well not on your street. Cant fight the war on terror there, what would the neighbours think?

5. Conspiracy thoeries are to fear, uncertainty and doubt what fairy tales are to romantic love. The story one truly needs to believe in. yeah well you are the ones saying the Palestinians deliberately blow up their neighbours, that the MSM all plot to report anti-Israeli lies.

6. Do you not think that at a time when Israel was shelling Palestinians some Palestinians might have been killed? Is that too improbable to get your head round?

7. Oh and then please don't argue with anyone who disagrees TROLLS TROLLS TROLLS! Right wing loonies write all sorts of unpleasant crap and advocate the killing of large numbers of people but that is ok.

Criticism...tut tut tut

you are a coward neo. Sat in New England pontificating about the misery of people far away from you who you know nothing about. A gleeful cheerleader for the death and misery of people on all sides

Mugged by reality

cheerleader for death. Stood with your pom pom and sickle.

yeah thanatos! come on the four horseman!

reality. You wouldn't know it if it ran up and bit you

 
At 1:17 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

I agree with you about the rubbish around 9/11. The simplest explanation is usually the best.

But, do you really need a "miracle" to believe the IDF, unintentionally, killed some Palestinian civilians? I think not. We need to beware of the knee jerk assumption that your side can do no wrong - which is exactly what neo is doing here. LAcking the ability to recognise that violence is coming from all sides she is prepared to twist herself round to believe any argument advanced by teh IDF. Even when there is no evidence being produced.

See the Jerusalem Post link - is that some leftie paper then neo? When Israel produces its evidence for independent analysis then i will come on here and say i am wrong.

 
At 2:04 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

There are those who believe we didn't land on the moon, even though, with a not too terribly powerful telescope, you can see the artifacts we left on the surface. If you cover your eyes and plulg your ears and shout 'Na-na-na' there's not much we can do for you.

 
At 5:19 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh come on Douglas who is shutting their eyes round here? Me? You? Neo?

Maybe the IDF are not responsible, it is possible. So why not produce the evidence for examination. And if it turns out they are you can guarantee neo will say it is justified or blame the trolls.

 
At 6:46 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger goesh said...

Such a wicked lot those palis, actually quite disgusting their tactics and lies and murder. I've never advocated genocide but I've come close with these devils.

Regarding the trolls, I simply don't read them. I come here for the Posts Neo makes and the exellant commentary and insights by respondents. We all pretty much know what the trolls will say so why bother to even read them? I know the flaws in my political ideology, the weakness and strong points already.

 
At 7:39 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

yeah well this as weak a point as you are going to get. No chance you b3eing anything other than bigotted about the palestinians is there.

Such a wicked lot those palis, actually quite disgusting their tactics and lies and murder. I've never advocated genocide but I've come close with these devils.

 
At 11:13 AM, June 14, 2006, Blogger al fin said...

A good conspiracy theory is like a good work of fiction. You must get your reader to suspend his sense of skepticism and disbelief, in order to swallow the plot. For some, like arab muslims and inveterate lefties, the sense of disbelief is finely selective. Belief of guilt precedes interpretation and presentation of evidence. The overwhelming and monstrous belief of guilt precedes all possible wrongdoing, waiting with a hungry maw for something to happen. Sometimes it gets tired of waiting and makes something happen.

Evidence, Sherlock, evidence. This separates the modern from the primitive, the thinking human from the mindlocked and senile. The openness or closedness to evidence.

 
At 12:24 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

my god sally has started to make sensible points

Given that, if we ask what's the likelihood that this Gaza beach incident was in fact an "atrocity" manufactured by Palestinians, I think the answer must be that it's at least plausible

yeah it is plausible. The whole thing is a violent mess and all kinds of nonsense has taken place.

So let us see the evidence. Let the IDF release the fragments of shrapnel for analysis.

Neo has done exactly what you accuse the "indecent left" of doing; taking her preconceptions and using them as the basis for interpretation of events.

And, as i said above, even if it is true how is this mess going to be sorted out? More violence? more oppression? Or shall we push goesh that extra mile and follow him to hell?

Goesh said...
Such a wicked lot those palis, actually quite disgusting their tactics and lies and murder. I've never advocated genocide but I've come close with these devils.


The truth is that only America has th einfluence over Israel to push them into a peaceful settleent. Sitting around disbelieving Israel can ever behave badly does not help.
make

 
At 12:57 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Let me remind people reading Conneds last paragraph, how the Leftists talked about America being too "unilateral". Once the Left gains power, no nation will be free from intimidation, coercion, threats, and forcible payment of extortion money.

Israel is their alpha project you might say, their attempt to direct American power (which is not theirs) to fullfill what they see as a popular cause. Once they succede at forcing a small nation lke Israel to do what they demand, then they will enhance and polish their manipulation tactics learned, and apply them to other countries. Smaller, less well known, but just as vulnerable.

The fear is obviously that one nation or person will gain too much power, and they will abuse it. But we all know the Left has the track record of infinite abuses of power. It is after all, consistent with the philosophy. The Left came from classical liberals the same way neo-cons did, except we're like the adopted son vs the biological son. (mIchael reagan vs his brother)

What this tells me, is that the Left uses human rights to justify whatever murderers, extortion, and Big Brother tyrannical systems they feel the need to implement. Just as a classical liberal can justify any death or toppling of dictators as being necessary for the Cause, that cause being human rights.

Those are liberals, fake or true. Their beliefs justify anything and everything, in the pursuit of human rights and/or utopia. The conservatives see things differently. The military, for example, is a very conservative organization. By that, I mean that they are not going to try new things just for the heck of it. The old things that work, that is whati s valued in warfare, not new fangled gadgets. That does not mean the military in wartime will use old stuff and get themselves killed. The threat of death produces the necessity for innovation, thus conservatives only adopt new fangled things if they NEED them. That is inherently the difference. A conservative supports wars and the toppling of dictators because he sees a need. A classical liberal never needs an excuse to war or to topple dictators, because that is part of classical liberalms, to swear undying enmity to all tyrannies, past or future.

To summarize it in a snappy conclusion, conservatives are less prone to power hungry corruption because conservatives inherently are resistant to new technologies, wars, an tactics that would give them that power in the first place. Liberals are hungry for the power to change the world, therefore any edge or advantage will be seized upon.

It does not mean liberals are not set in their ways, and also does not mean conservatives will never accept change. As you see now, the military in 2005 was accepting new technologies faster than the civilian world. Because wars fuel the human need to survive, and a gadget will give you that edge to survive, conservatives are all for it. Infact, conservatives are more for it than liberals would be, because conservatives have more energy to pour into new endeavours simply because they spend most of their lives being used to the familiar. The liberals, being what they are, try to seize upon any advantage, no matter how frivolous. This wastes their energy and time. For conservatives, that is not the case, therefore the zealotry when conservatives adopt a "new fangled thing" (like Iraq War or what not) is in fact, more zealous and fanatically than even the most zealous and fanatical liberal would be (the liberals that wanted to topple Saddam that is).

So this is why people should be scared of people like Conned getting control of the power of the US, and not scared about Bush being in control of that power.

 
At 1:08 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

sometimes i really do wonder who the trolls are. What the hell is all the above saying? One sentence summary. Go on try it.
Just for me :-)

 
At 2:29 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Who are you talking to, stumb?

 
At 4:20 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh well the Germans were v lucky to beat the poles - thats the world cup not ww2 - and I have updated the profile. Blog to follow if I can find some time. i.e. you can only do so much while you are meant to be working.

and remember confud, tempting as it may seem please do not feed the trolls. especially the really really mad one.

 
At 5:06 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

"We still got a few hours before New Zealand comes online. Then the fury shall be plain onto scariness."

Y, it is all right dear. It is only a little nightmare. NZ is right here. Would you like a nice warm milk dearie?

Of course, everything that the IDF says is right!!It always is!! There now. Does that make you feel better?

Would you like me to read you some of GWB’s stories? You always like them. Nice and sweet and comforting stories. How about “St George and the Big Bad Arab”, or “St George captures Alladin”. That’s your favourite, isn’t it!!! Come on then, snuggle up and we will read it together.

On the substantive matter - neoneocon has it pretty right, that for some the conspiracy theories are a nice comforter, a palliative for those who are unable to accept the official line.

Her foray into the realms of "anti-semitism" makes emotive play out of any attempt to criticise political beliefs and actions, in the same way as "anti-american" is used to vilify those who criticise her nation.

But truly, the big problem here -the very big problem - is not what you or I might think but the veracity of what we are told and what we hear.

I am not going off into a great tirade (sorry Y, but your troll is not going to work). There is no future in it. For those who believe everything the Israeli government says is absolute fact you have your comforter. For myself, the whole matter is inconclusive. There is no independant review. There is only one word against another from people with vested interests and a very long history on both sides of being very free with their interpretation of what constitutes "truth".


Oh, BTW. In NZ a "comforter" is called a "dummy".

 
At 5:50 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

Confude!! Didja HAVTA!!???!! It was SUCH a good line!!

Yeah, upsetting the American market with a name that sounds like "Jihad" was a bit much. Loved the sarcasm implied by the name change too. Very a propos the current debate.

And for those who don't know the background to our little private joke, Shihad (rhymes with jihad)are a NZ pop-group - a good one by all accounts - who changed their name to "Pacifier" after 9/11 so that there would be no confusion in the US market. They returned to NZ a couple years back and are Shihad once again.

 
At 7:43 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I am not going off into a great tirade (sorry Y, but your troll is not going to work).

Confud's in the New Zealand area as well, you're not special just cause you're from New Zealand and I don't limit my comments just to you, probligo.

The video is very carefully rehearsed and setup in order to maximize the propaganda impact. Did you see the Hamas video of the screaming daughter on the beach? Why the heck was Hamas right there filming anyways?

A lot of people forget when the camera is rolling, is that it is an artificial framework. You're not "seeing it" with your own eyes, the camera is setup to show only what the cameraman wants it to show. You don't need to edit or doctor anything, just set it up right.

 
At 8:27 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

Yes, Y, that video was shown on tv news last night. I saw it. It has as much credence as the findings of the IDF inquiry.

In other words...

easily faked and totally unconfirmed by independant sources.

Did you also notice that the hole had footprints in it, there was no evidence of explosive residue, and the edges to the hole had been "softened" where explosives tend to leave a rim and radiants.... It also appeared, from the very brief glimpse, to have been dug perpendicular to the sand surface. A shell would more likely have impacted at an angle to the surface and an oval hole would result from the explosion.

But why am I supplying my critique to you? Obviously your sources are far more knowledgeable than I. Why aren't you spouting all of this careful deduction yourself to prove just how devious and misleading Palestinians and the left really are and how clever and intelligent you are?

Guess that hole must have been caused by a Texas gopher that had overindulged in Mexican chilli and beans before flying to Gaza for a laze in the sun. Or perhaps it was one of those ice bombs that high altitude aircraft drop from time to time - whenever someone uses the toilet. After all, GWB was flying over sometime about then wasn't he? Oh, sorry no. It was about three days later he went over - but he still could've...

Did you note also that both sides are refusing to submit shrapnel "samples" for independant analysis.

Wake from your daily nightmare, let nursey give you a nice warm glass of milk (she might even share a titty with you if you ask nicely and say please) and then you will feel all better again.

 
At 9:56 PM, June 14, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

"This is not to say, it should be obvious, that the Israelis are always right nor the Palestinians always wrong. It is to say that the Israeli moral position is vastly superior to the Palestinian over all, and in many ways is a good example of how right makes might."

I agree with every word of that, except the sequence of the last three.

"...might makes right."

There, now it is correct.

 
At 1:14 AM, June 15, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

That you interpret my views as this

But something quite different is to actually cheer for terrorists/islamic utopists and hate Israel so much, in an almost pathological way

shows you are simply working out of your own narrow bigotries.

I wrote this "It is also worth listening to the story of the Israelis being attacked by Palestinian Rockets in teh Gaza strip as to the motives for IDF attacks. The process is a cycle of violence which needs to be stopped. Not justified or explained away and all blamed on one side."
which ariel kindly quoted. Do you think this is evidence of a psychopathic anything? Or of someone tired of all the killing who would like to hear how it can be sorted out rather than who was to blame for the last lot and who will encourage the next?

It is the easiest thing in the world to advocate harsh action as the clear solution to complex problems. As a result more people are killed and injured while neo writes that it was all staged as a piee of propaganda.

Well maybe the Palestinians did do it - i doubt it given than the Israeli artillery had been shelling the area it seems most likely that it was an Israeli shell, did they not expect that the use of artillery might produce death? But even if they did there is a whole tragedy here that needs to be sorted out in a way that knee jerk support for one side or th eother will not achieve.

 
At 4:28 AM, June 15, 2006, Blogger The probligo said...

Ariel,

"Does anyone know of a video or pictures of the crater on Gaza beach?"

There was a video shown on tv news here. It showed a young girl running around on a beach screaming and tearing at her hair. Cut to hole in ground with sundry clothes and shoes lying about. Cut to young girl screaming beside hole in ground. Total duration probably 20 secs.

Obviously Y had seen it and thought that I might have been simple enough to have swallowed it.

I think that I must have disappointed him. What I documented was from the simple application of concentration and observation.

There was in one of our Sunday papers a photo (courtesy of Getty Images) of some sandals, one or two kid's toys (a plastic swan), and a patch of "disturbed ground". Spoiling it some-what was the patch of very hard-looking clay/soil in the right hand corner and the "red" blood spots that look like lumps rather than having soaked into soft dry sand. The biggest spoiler was the fact that one of the children's sandals was sitting on top of the other. Not a good look if there has been a nearby explosion. I have tried to
scan it, but it loses much in the process. I will email it on request, as scanned and as best I can clarify it.

Analysis of photos is quite simple. There is enough in the Getty image to make it suspect at best.

 
At 5:36 AM, June 15, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

and in many ways is a good example of how right makes might.

Probligo sees right makes might as might makes right. Hrm, freudian complex going on here.

I appologise for my terrible English.

People had to start somewhere, and your English is pretty good in written form.

 
At 7:53 AM, June 15, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I don't know why you think most of what I say about things is somehow intended as a theatric aside, to you probligo.

But, I don't place enough importance in your views, to try to undermine them through stealth. If I wanted to say something that I believed was wrong about you, probligo, I would do so without the theatrics and have already done on my blog.

 
At 12:57 AM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

yeah well before you go back into your state of mystic purity try reading this.

The Independent

and think about the difference between disagreeing, mocking and being unpleasant. As for trolling the word is meaningless. Thrown around by those who do not wish to hear opposing views strongly expressed. If you don't like what is said miss it out. Do you think i read every word yrmdwnkr writes? No I do not life is too short. As for everybody else grow up and stop having a fit just because someone says you are talking crap.

Blogs are public spaces. They are a new form of journalism with very different techniques. Sucessful blogs encourage a range of opinions and we should be grateful to neo for doing this. If she shuts off the "trolls" then this site will become a neo-con love in and, while it may get many readers, it will fall victim to group think and become irrelevant.

 
At 2:16 AM, June 16, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

"it will fall victim to group think and become irrelevant."

I thought we were already there?

 
At 3:10 AM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

don't think so. If you look at the range of comments supportive of neo and those against they are exactly that a range. On the extreme right are people like yrmdwknr and comrade wasp who are very different from the likes of ariel or SB. On the other side, confud is v different from probligo.

Neo is a polite version of the extreme right.

 
At 5:43 AM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

If you think I am "extreme" left then that shows just how right wing you are. As for your other point yeah it is a tad arrogant to think that you make any difference to someone else's blog because, as an individual, you don't.

However no discussion that is simply a list of statements agreeing with each other is worth reading. So contradictory opinions are helpful, they improve the quality. It does not matter who does it - as long as someone does.

I suppose neo is going to move to moderated comments and you will be able to rest easy in your own insular and dangerously ill informed world. Me I enjoy arguing. I don't understand the desire to pontificate on a blog and then get grumpy when people argue that you are talking rubbish.

As I said above, if there are comments you don't like don't read them - ignore.

It what neo wants :-)

 
At 6:13 AM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I keep wanting to say fool me once... for some reason.

 
At 12:32 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

hmmm lets have a think


1. No such thing as left and right anymore. Ok maybe this is true. How about those who defend the interests of the rich and powerful against those who do not? Or those who favour peace against those who do not? Or those who think all arabs/muslims are evil against those who do not? Or even...bit hippyish this but what the hell - those who think we are destroying the environment v those who will drive the car for two minutes before starting their three mile walk?

2.SATURDAY, JULY 30, 2005 And Arabs? They're fine, never had a moment's problem with them, until I realized that so many of them were celebrating and advocating the death of Americans, Israelis, Jews, and other westerners, and that there is something about the culture that seems to foster and support this sort of thing. It is simply an empirical fact, and if we ignore it or cover it up, we do so, quite literally, at our own peril. so our "moderate" neo is a racist oh hum. A nice polite racist who will argue that she is not ---but says all arabs are violent etc.as i said she is polite and extremely right wing.

3. To paint the position of the left as one of non-change is simplistic. However you could also argue that it shows a certain level of consistency. Why should your attitude to terrorism change just because it happened in your country rather than someone elses?

4. Also what is to be done about all this violence? The neo-con all arabs are terrorists lets fight the arabs in a new crusade approach is childish to say the least. This is very much the position neo holds. You trawl this blog to find solutions.

5. sorry ariel but this is not true. She welcomes contrary opinions but not in the adolescent way trolls offer theirs. They stifle debate, because ultimately it is all about them and them alone.

6. Like many sites - left and right - contradictory opinions are not welcomed. Opposition=trolling is the mantra. It is meaningless as a word. Look at the posts from yrmdwnkr and others on here. Violent, rambling and often incomprehensible but right wing so ok.

7. Just look at the tantrums that were thrown when the trolls learned they would be shut out. Did you mean when i posted this evidence that neo's blatantly racist approach to the IDF killing children on a beach in Gaza was factually wrong?

8. (I love my lists) Look at the history of posts on this site and you will see that people turn up criticise neo, get nowhere, get called a troll, get bored and leave. Neo should stop throwing the teddy out of the pram and wait for this process to happen again. It leaves me with the impression that she does not like to be contradicted in her neo-con views as much as she probably didn't in her alleged period of liberalism.

9. ...and finally...if you make public pronouncements - which a blog is - then you should expect public comment. I realise many do not do this but they are cowards.

 
At 1:07 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

me agian.....slow day today..... been going through th eusual right wing blogs and it strikes me that this kind of nonsense

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/ is where neo is heading. Smug, didactic, unthinking right wing crap with a real dose of agreement or insanity in the comments section.

dull dull dull

 
At 5:00 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...


Did neo closed comments? Just as I managed to find courage to post. Oh damn.


She only did it for the first two posts, since some people have a tendency to see new posts without comments as a way for them to grandstand, thereby luring them to do mega multiple posts. This way, if people want to say something, they have to scroll down to the old threads and talk there.

She said that she was doing something, so I suppose comments for new posts will be off until she has a chance to implement her 'Final Solution'.

"so our "moderate" neo is a racist oh hum. A nice polite racist who will argue that she is not ---but says all arabs are violent etc.as i said she is polite and extremely right wing."

Hey stumb, I thought that came from Confud. Are you telling me that Conned wrote that!?

 
At 5:25 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Ok lets focus in on one issue. My accusation that neo is racist.

Definition:

When you describe all of a particular ethnic group as having particular , usually inferior, characteristics.

For example,

all mexicans are lazy

is a long standing racist assumption in the USA. Or

all Irish are stupid is one still quite common in Britain.

The source of the laziness or stupidity can be ascribed to genetic or cultural factors but has pretty much the same consequence; a blanket assumption that explains what happens to that group. If mexicans are unemployed or low paid it is because they are lazy, or if the Irish do badly in the English education system it is because they are stupid. racist statements are used to explain inequalities.

so we come to neo...

Is it racism to speak truth about a general trend among a group? If someone were to say, for example, that Ethiopians and Kenyans are overrespresented among distance runners--in fact, are probably the best runners, as a group, in the world--is that racist? It's just a fact. Does it mean that all Ethiopians and Kenyans are good runners? No. Does it mean that the running propensities of Ethiopians and Kenyans are innate and hardwired? Not necessarily. It's simply an observation borne out by facts--these groups are overrepresented among distance runners.

So it is for the Palestinians. There is a nihilistic strain among Palestinians, and in many other Arab cultures, that is quite powerful. Are nihilists overrepresented in Arab culture? Yes. Are all Arabs nihilists? Of course not. Are all nihilists Arabs? Absolutely not
from the same post on racism as above.

sophisticated this. are all arabs nihilists no. Sounds quite reasonable. Are nihilists over-represented yes?

hmmm

so are "lazy people over represented in mexican culture"

or "stupid people over represented in Irish culture" racist statements....well yes. Even in Nazi Germany there was the concept of a good Jew, unlike those evil ones that Hitler goes on about. For Nazis said not are all Jews are evil, it is that evil people are over represented in the Jews.

Then when the question is asked of neo "why do bad things happen to the palestinians" her answer is nihilists (are) overrepresented in Arab culture they are violent etc. and it is there own fault.

it is a racist answer. Sophisticated yes, subtle yes, but its basic explanation is that palestinians are in some way different/inferior.

 
At 6:01 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

i can see how you are trying to argue that the logic is wrong but if you read neo's original post you can see the following

until I realized that so many of them were celebrating and advocating the death of Americans, Israelis, Jews, and other westerners, and that there is something about the culture that seems to foster and support this sort of thing. It is simply an empirical fact, and if we ignore it or cover it up, we do so, quite literally, at our own peril.

neo is saying that arab culture has a flaw which makes it more violent.

hmmm "dont confuse fact with opinion"

interesting point that maybe you should address to neo as she is the one claiming that nihilism is over represented in arab culture and uses this to expalin the situation of the palestinians.

neo makes great play of claiming to deal with fact but is interesting to see which "facts" she grasps at.

The IDF didn't kill people on Gaza beach

Arabs are more likely to be nihilists


...as for your other point is it not possible the reason that black people are over-represented in sports is that traditional routes of success in commerce, corporations, education, military etc. have been limited for black people so a culture of ambition through sport has emerged. racism can be subtle and produce strange effects.

 
At 6:07 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh and i am sure this evidence of IDF guilt will be ignored as this really is a left wing paper - unlike The Independent - any sensible critique of it?

 
At 6:19 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) said...

Errr... you're saying racism is a subset of inductive reasoning? Did I catch your explanation correctly, conned?

 
At 6:25 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

hmmmmm well no. I am saying that you can logically infer racism from statements made by neo-con. Read through the whole thing.

 
At 8:58 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

People can just use my first syllable of my name. Ymar, instead of Ymar+***

I didn't see it as ambiguous Ariel, since you said it did (come from conned) in your first place.

I do have to remind people, that people with bad logic trying to tell you that their logic is good by using their bad logic, is in a cycle of logical violence.

 
At 9:28 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

You're not using your mobile to write comments here are you? Cause I got a mobile that can hook up to my wireless router, but using that to write is way too slow using touchpad/mini keyboard.

 
At 9:37 PM, June 16, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Could be stumb or doug. There's always mary. Or was sally. The regulars. At the speed I read the comments these days because of the intersecting people posting, I don't even read the names most times.

 
At 3:06 AM, June 17, 2006, Blogger douglas said...

The 'German as largest ethnic contingent in America' was posted by HMS Conqueror in the 'more things change...' thread.

You know, before WWI there were many towns in the Eastern US where German was spoken more than English.

 
At 11:49 AM, June 17, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Germany had a great military system, but their political diplomacy left a lot to be desired. They actually tried to get an alliance with Britain by arming up their naval fleet, because they believed this would convince the British that a strong ally like Germany would be beneficial. Instead, the British declared war on Germany in WWI, when they allied with the French instead of with the Germans. Bismarck's careful political strategy was totally messed up by the monarchs and the Junkers.

If Germany had allied with the US, and prevented the US-Britain alliance or made an Axis of US-Britain-Germany, then a lot of things would have changed, and I believe for the better. Instead of having to fight Stalin with the French and the Brits, we would have fought Stalin with the German war machine on our side. France would have surrendered just as easily, instead of engaging in two world wars, one hot and one cold, we would have ended things in WWII, the threat of fascism and communism. All the leading spiritual leaders of Nazism, would hve had to flee Germany or be executed, because with the help of the United States in WWI, Germany's economy would be going full steam ahead by 1935.

The Communist party was strong in France, so France was more of a natural ally to Stalin and the Soviets than Germany.

German culture has a lot of order in it, discipline, being punctual, and other virtues. The socialist government of the West and the communist populace of the East, somehow combined to make a total that was less than the sum of its parts.

Germany is a broken nation and a broken people. No threat to the US, but also not a very useful comrade in arms either.

 
At 4:57 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Germany is a broken nation and a broken people. No threat to the US, but also not a very useful comrade in arms either.


you are an ill informed buffoon

 
At 5:42 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Ariel - a few notes on racism...

I still maintain that neo is a racist and do so even though this is the one accusation neo-cons dismiss as meaningless and an easy 'leftist' comment.

So how can i sustain this?

Firstly Racism is a cultural thing. The physical and genetic differences between human beings are extremly minor. There is a strong case to argue that human beings have a common ancestor as recently as 70 000 years ago. What physical differences that do exist are interpreted in cultural terms as being very important e.g. skin colour. There are differences, there is variation. And as you rightly said about the weight lifting stuff;

"He commented that there was a larger pool of the right skeletal characteristic (wide hips) in white males than black males. You know what he was called don't you?"

yup i do know because you hear this casual use of racism a lot. However does it really matter that one group are better at weightlifting? Not really. And, a complex but related issue, has the existence of clearly distinct populations in which all members have a clear advantage over another group been shown? no.

So we come to neo and the Palestinians. Interesting this as the Palestinians are genetically very similair to the Israelis. Try this argument for a bit of background Also the two groups are so vague as to make claims about two clearly separate people on biological grounds pretty difficult. So we are looking at cultural differences. Many in teh US perceive Israelis as culturally similair and Palestinians as very different.

So. to neo. I argue she is racist because she interprets the behaviour of the Palestinians as being in some way inferior. That they are merely a violent bunch with a high degree of nihilism. Any violence that occurs to them has to be their own fault. To the extent that attacks upon them, such as the one on the beach in Gaza have to be seen as the fault of the Palestinians.

Neo can only interpret the behaviour of the Palestinians as the actions of an inferior group with lower standards and morals.

Yes she is not Hitler. But racism is a continuum from mild bigotry to the kind of nonsense that drove apartheid. It is also worth saying that you can find racism among many groups including muslims. You only have to read the ravings of AQ supporters to come across anti-semitic crap that Himler would have been proud of.

But it is worth considering the following

1. Does she consider that all muslims are basically the same and likely to support violence?

2. Does she consider Arab/Palestinian culture as inferior to American?

3. Does she believe in the existence of a global muslim plot to control the world which many muslims at least tacitly support?

4. Is she willing to blame anything bad that happens to Arabs-Muslims-Palestinians as being a consequence of their own propensity to violence?

I would argue that she does. Neo does not do debate because these are arguments she would simply dismiss as leftist accusations, straw men, trolling etc. But they do reflect the attitude underlying her posts.

As for many of the people who write on this blog, well they simply view muslims as demons to be destryed yet receive no criticism from neo. In fact she is exceedingly tolerant of racist comments even the ones inciting the use of violence.

Why does this matter?

Beause increaasingly in neo-con debate we can see the rehabilitation of simplistic and racist assumptions about non-USA nations and ethnic groups. The assumption of USA = good everybody else = weak or bad is dumb and flows through many neo-con idseas about the world.

...and finally congrats to the USA team for a brave and determined performance against the Italians and an incompetent referee. Might have only drawn when they deserved to win but v impressive.

 
At 8:03 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

ok then sally

1. It is spelled RACISM

2. As you yourself say race is an inherently flawed concept and what we ae discussing are CULTURAL differences. For example religion, language etc. I draw your attention to the genetic similarity fo "Israelis" and "Palestinians". So why the big fuss about one or the other - depending on perspective. It is the culture. People like you despise the Palestinian culture and blame anything that becomes of them as a result of this, flawed, culture. Even when that might be an Israeli attack.

3. To borrow from the history of racism we can see that a large part of the process is to demonize a particular group. These usually follow predictable patterns. They are all

violent and aggressive
stupid
evil
sexually dangerous
plotting against the rest of us
unloved by god
etboringcetera

This is exactly what neo is doing in her treatment of the Palestinians. Her racist kneejerk reaction to all events around Israel is to laud the Israelis and demonize the Palestinians - hence i accuse her of being a racist.

Neo argues that whatever evil befalls the Palestinians is a result of them being Palestinian.

Read the list of points of accusation I made of neo and see if you can defend her. I am willing to be proved wrong - but given the nature of much of her writing i think you will find it difficult.

4. As for cultural relativism I am afraid I am forced to admit the left has a real problem here.

On the one hand we are arguing for such things as a doctrine of Internationl Human Rights. Universal laws on freedom of thought and action, economic liberty etc.

On the other we argue for toleration of all cultures.


So when we come across things such as female circumcision or the death penalty life gets philosophically complex.

However this is in the end relative. It is a matter of compromise because, and I don't think you are going to like this bit, objective definitions of good and bad human behaviour are culturally specific. For example the possession of hand guns is seen as normal by many Americans but as extremely deviant in European society. The use of pornographic images in mainstream media is seen as normal in many western societies but as highly offensive in many muslim societies.

 
At 8:05 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh sorry one bit I forgot.

How would you objectively give a description of what is a "good" society as against a "bad" one and avoid the whole relativist accusation?

 
At 10:12 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

you are an ill informed buffoon

That's what they called George Washington when he went out to war for glory.

Watching Conned trying to argue that culturalism is racism and culture is race and race is culture, is sort of like watching two retarded mud wrestlers trying to win without getting dirty.

 
At 10:17 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Btw, Bookworm has already written about what ethics should be about.

Link

 
At 10:23 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

For better credibility, the investigation should have been done by an independent entity, such as a judge. Presumably, Israel has an independent judiciary. A judge could have been entrusted with the investigation.

I'm sure Israel would do that, when Hamas puts on trial terroists with their "independent judiciary".

It would be absurd to give criminals protection when criminals do not obey the law, but it seems in the Arab Jewish wars, absurdity is a norm.

We know the French are corrupt and will backstab anyone for money and fame. It don't even matter if the French does it any other way, it will still be the same Francophile result.

All of Americans who don't like French culture, by the way, are racists. Why?

So when we come across things such as female circumcision or the death penalty life gets philosophically complex. Conned

Because it is a good solution for people who feel that things are getting too philosophically complex.

 
At 11:45 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh sally give up banging on about "trolls" and either argue or admit defeat

 
At 11:47 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

oh and yrmdwnkr

We know the French are corrupt and will backstab anyone for money and fame

is as dumb as your comment about the germans...and as ill informed.

 
At 11:59 AM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

It is either fight to the death on enemy chosen territory, enveloped by enemy stratagems, or retreat.

Such are the tactics of aggression based expansionist powers.

 
At 3:17 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

...sally if you read what i wrote and think carefully you will see that this

Thus, they claim that such and such a group can no more help their behavioral or cultural characteristics than anybody can help their genetic characteristics, which of course implicitly condemns groups with cultural features that are harmful to themselves and/or others, in exactly the same hopeless and vicious way that actual racists condemned what they thought of as racial groups.

is nonsense. I am saying that neo is a racist because she condems all members of a cultural group - in this case the palestinians. In fact i argue she does something a little more sophisticated than that but I can't be arsed to go through it again as you cannot get it together to respond with anything better than

This also stands, yet again, as a good illustration of why it's pointless to argue with trolls as though you really expected to find even a minimally honest opponent. Thus, his apparent concession regarding the problems of cultural relativism in point 4 -- which is immediately contradicted and withdrawn (trolls have no concern with logic or consistency after all)

iwas pointing out the problem and suggesting a router out. I was dealing with complexity. try it :-)

 
At 3:56 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

If you don't want to argue with trolls, then stop. What's so difficult about exerting enough will to stop?

 
At 4:09 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Dean just took some people to the woodshack. Read to find out which.

Woodshacked

 
At 7:06 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

France's corruption is institutionalized for a degree of reasons. Their Oil for Food and selling Saddam weapons were engineered by Chirac, over a period of decades, solely for personal profit.

They needed this personal profit, for yes personal reasons, but also primarily because their social welfare system was going into the red. They even went so far as to try to cut down on the benefits, and got the student riots in Paris recently, that was how bad their financial situation became after we destroyed their assets in the oil for Food scheme.

Link

There's polls, and then there are polls. Look up the above one.

The reason why people don't like America isn't because of people like me, it is because America acts like the IRS and nobody likes the IRS, not even the IRS. The IRS functions as an anti-corruption sword of damocles, no one is immune. Not France, not the UN, not tyrants, not terroists, not pirates nor criminals. The US is enemy to all those who would seek to oppress and cheat and disobey the laws of humanity, and because the US is impartial in applying this standard, we make no friends amongst our targets. If the US just subjugated our enemies to our standards of honesty, decency, and transparency, then our friends would hail us as an ally and impartial witness, simply because they are benefiting. However, the United States tends to get into everyone's business on an equal audit basis, and this means not even the friends of the IRS are immune from being audited and put in jail if they try to cheat out of their taxes and obligations.

Our allies don't like us because they'd prefer to be in control, our enemies don't like us because we're too powerful for them to put their boot on and oppress us with terror tactics, and neutral people don't like us because everyone else, ally or foe, has told them that America is not good.

This doesn't mean you're going to get rid of the IRS, however. And it doesn't mean that America will give nations like France or anyone else a pass if they practice corruption, exploitation, or anything else the US finds deplorable. Now there are priorities, like all bureacracies, and that means some criminals have some time of freedom while other criminals are caught in the act.

You seem to be setting up an equation between Hamas and Israel then --

Hamas is the government now, before I might not have said something like that. But th way to fight an asymmetrical war is to bring it into symmetry.

that Israel should behave in the same way that Hamas does.

Since, according to you, Hamas presumably protects criminals, then, it follows from your argument, Israel should also do likewise.


It doesn't matter what I favor, since like I said, Hamas should do what Israel does. If they both do different things, that means asymmetry becomes in existence. I did not say that Israel should behave as Hamas does, I said that Hamas should act as Israel has, and then Israel will be able to give you what you personally demand. If you want legitimacy, then force Hamas to give that legitimacy by fair trial and judges.

By admitting that Hamas does not use judges and is in itself a criminal organization, you have just rendered the equation in a manner that says, Israel acts correctly because their opposition are criminals.

There's two ways of looking at it. Either Israel does it themselves, and decides trial by judge or trial by military judgement. Or, Israel and Hamas does it themselves, through dual judgements using independent analysis techniques. People who want legitimacy should favor the dual process. People who just want Israel to do things, because they believe Hamas is a criminal organization, would focus on Israel because as we all know, Israel is just special and different.

Israel does not target civilians, Hamas does. Israel obeys the rules of war, the government of Hamas does not. Israel has no interest in having their people killed to produce propaganda, Hamas does.

This is asymmetrical warfare, charles, and it is the basis for any arguments i make. The basis for your arguments is that you believe that Israel caused the deaths of civilians on purpose and then covered it up by blaming the Palestinians.

Your position has no legitimacy, therefore you are reduced to demanding legitimacy from the one source that can provide it, the Israelis themselves. The Hamas cannot provide it to you, because they don't do trials by jury or judges, they do executions on demand and fatwah.

Your argument is not the same as mine, therefore when I talk about your argument, I am undermining your argument, not mine.

As for America, a last conclusive note. Nobody likes peacekeepers. And this is what the IRS does, they take no sides, which means everyone is their enemy more or less. Every side is a peacekeeper's enemy, more or less.

 
At 9:10 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Can we kill them tomorrow? If we can kill them tomorrow, don't tell me we're being weak by not killing them today.

 
At 11:45 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

However, notice that no one country has any right, under international law, to unilaterally take upon itself that role: that role properly belongs to the UN

I don't recall casting a vote for my representative in the UN. Do You? Does anyone? Since when did "rights" come from dictators, bureacrats, and elitist aristocrats anyway? The UN is a kind of retro-liberal function of 20th century nuclear annihilation. Or the possibility of thus. It is not representative of anyone, it has no legitimacy in terms of personal liberties, and it sure as heck ain't got a right to wipe their own arse without the funding of the nations they are parasitic upon.

We can argue about what belongs to whom, but the UN ain't one of the land owners here, they don't get a vote because I don't get to vote in my reps in there.

Your theory that it's the "IRS"-like behavior of the US which is causing this decline in its image cannot, therefore, be accurate, because the US has been behaving this way for a very long time now.

Any organization run by humans is not going to act the "same" every few decades. Therefore Carter let the pro-American and progressive Shah to be overthrown in Iran, because that was Carter's IRS auditing powers of bankruptcy. A lot of things like this happen, because the humans in the bureacracy change, so the breaucratic policies change as well. But over all, the goal of the IRS and the US has not changed fundamentally that much.

It makes little sense for people to like America less now that the IRS is punishing the rich dictators and tyrants instead of in the past when America punished babies and women through starving them through Oil and Food, while Saddam still gets the oil money through kickbacks. Little logic there.

In essence, people are afraid of the US because now they understand the US is no paper tiger. No one is safe now from the IRS, so their dread and fear and need to destroy and corrupt the IRS now becomes more prioritized than say when the IRS was sleeping at the wheel. When the US reaches its arms across half the world and smites two so called "sovereign nations", then everyone else has to start wondering "why can't we do the same thing just as effortlessly, why do we have to struggle to just maintain 15,000 fighting forces?". That is what they ask, and their answer becomes "they can't do it because they are weak, like a red belt vs a ninth level black belt, it just ain't fair". This is why they are less "favorable" towards the US, which is sort of like another way of asking "do you think the US can and will kick your nation's arse and take away your toys". Of course they're going to fill in "unfavorable" after seeing the might of the dragon unleashed, the furious tiger and the whatever nature symbols are available to be used. People in the US are "unfavorable" towards Congress and government because they are confiscating people's home without breaking a sweat. Does this mean people were against confiscating other people's private property through Emminent Domain before, just because they weren't worried about the government doing so? No, by all means, not. They weren't worried because the Constitution prevented the government from confiscating people's homes, so people were favorable and not in fear of their homes being taken away. However, once the government acquires this power and does it so effortlessly, then people are not in favor of such things. This illustrates the basic philosophy.

The US is not confiscating people's property, we are in fact auditing their property and determining what is fair and what is illegal. The US is not a world government, the US is just an enforcement agency and bureacracy, like the IRS. We are not voted in, but then neither is the UN. People don't like this because... well, because.

Other countries where positive views [of the US] dropped significantly include India (56 percent, down from 71 percent).

The NYT doesn't give you the link to Pew's results on India, the new results.

What Pew says is this.

III: Opinions of U.S. Policies

A continuing source of resentment toward the U.S. is the view that America pays little if any attention to the interests of other countries in making international policy decisions. Americans, as might be expected, do not subscribe to this view. Two-thirds of the U.S. public says the United States pays either a great deal (28%) or a fair amount (39%) of attention to the interests of other nations.

Majorities in only three other countries now share that opinion; India, where 63% say the U.S. pays a great deal or a fair amount of attention to their country's interests, Indonesia (59%), and China (53%). In line with the general upsurge of positive feelings toward the U.S. in both India and Indonesia, these percentages are up sharply from past Pew Global Attitudes surveys.


So basically, if countries don't practice corruption and exploitation, they see the IRS as a necessary enforcement agency. So they tend to see no problems with the US's policy. France, on the other hand, has boat loads of corruption and huge percentage of people who believe US policy does not consider French immunity. China is weird in that they do exploit people, so they must consider the US a weak little step-child that actually considers other weaker nation's concerns.

An interesting stat is what people in different countries believe most influences American policy. Go to Influences on U.S. Policy "the graph"

France says 70 to 23 that Saddam's removal did not make the world safer. Obviously that is true, for the French, since Saddam's removal cut France's asset production down, which made it unsafe for Paris given the riots.

 
At 11:46 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

The IRS functions as an anti-corruption sword of damocles,

yrmdwnkr you probably dont realise how funny this comment is. Especially as you say the USA is some big international policeman.

however wikipedia is there to help you
"The Sword of Damocles is a frequently used allusion to this tale, epitomizing the insecurity of those with great power due to the possibility of that power being taken away suddenly, or, more generally, any feeling of impending doom."

as ever your ill informed buffoonery is most welcome.

p.s. is there anything that you do actually know about?

 
At 11:53 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I see the latest results now though, through the pdfl ink. I wonder what they changed about the collection policy. They only did India first in 2005.

 
At 11:54 PM, June 18, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I know that impending doom is what people feel whenever they hear the IRS knocking on their doors.

 
At 12:06 AM, June 19, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

swept? and confud, I have asked you before; please do not feed the trolls. I know he is very hungry but resist the temptation. Arguing with those who oppose is bad for you...ask neo.

 
At 12:59 PM, June 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

An Indian citizen doesn't (obviously) vote in US elections.

However, (s)he votes in Indian elections, and the elected Indian government sends an Indian representative to the UN. Thus, an Indian citizen has some say in UN decisions (or at least, in the General Assembly's decisions, because the Security Council, of course, is made up of an exclusive club of only five or six countries).


Without checks and balances, this doesn't matter. No UN Bureacrat ever lost a job because his policies hurt the people of Congo, India, or any other citizen of a UN body member. You're saying the humans in the UN are going to naturally look out for the interests of the people, when they work for the leader of that nation, a lot of times which holds absolute totalitarian power over the people, eh? Where's the check and balances that the US system has to ensure that elected representatives don't use their power to screw the system? Where's the check and balances in nations like Syria, North Korea, and Egypt that says the citizen's interests are protected in the UN? There are no guarantees, what is more important to note, is that the UN doesn't even pretend to offer a guarantee that it will look out for the interests of the constituency of their member bodies.

Now, for an Indian citizen, it is obviously desirable that the UN, rather than the US, be the "world's IRS and enforcer", as you call it;

That is neither obvious nor desirable. You lack justification for this belief, let alone saying this is a belief held honestly and justifiably by Indians. Why would Indians believe the UN would function appropriately as a world government?

and in fact US policy is (theoretically) not accountable to anyone but US citizens who elect the US government, there is absolutely no logic for the US to take on this role.

Here we have the differences spelled out between government by decree and secret police, which is the UN, compared to the US system which is of free trade and individuals being empowered to make deals.

While the UN governmental-bureacracy makes deals for the people of the world without checks upon their power, without being voted in, and without many other liberal democratic traditions like I don't know, one nation one vote or one people one vote. China and India has like 2/5ths of the world population, if not more combined. Yet China has a veto and India does not. This means the UN represents Indians, eh? No, I believe not.

As for the US system, it is about individual transactions and deals. Two nations, two people, talk to each other and agree amicably on a deal. The government stays out of these deals, usually.

That is why India gets more representation and fairness by dealing one on one with the US< rather than having the UN represent them. Simply because the US recognizes India's power and population and legitimacy, while the UN recognizes India as just another 3rd world country without a veto power.

So your argument should be reversed. India should deal with the US 1 to 1 because the US can represent India's interests in true proportion to India's needs and rights, than the UN has and could.

Again, Indians have a say in their government. Their government determines the agreement, whether status of forces or another kind, that is existent between the government and people of India and the government and people of the United States.


It is infinitely more democratic for the UN to perform this role, because every country in the world has a say in the UN's policies


It is not more democratic when 500,000,000 people have 5 votes compared to the 50 votes 50,000,000 people have. One person, one vote, one time. That is the basis of democracy, regardless of what kind or variation. Describing the UN as democratic redefines democracy, which is not justified by the reasoning or lack of it. Again check and balances, no taxation without representation. If you have 5 representatives to their 50, and your pop is greater than theirs, then it isn't fair to say that you have "real representation".

it should (unilaterally) act as the global policeman and enforcer,

I don't say whether it should or should not, I only state that this is the system that exists at the moment. Take it or go to another planet. You can input another IRS system and another IRS head if you can prove you're as powerful, as broad reaching, as effective in terms of enforcement, as the former IRS agency. Obviously you can have America's veto in the UN, if you pay for America's dues with your own money. We pay around 30 to 40% of the total UN budget. In a company, that is a hefty percentage of the interests. Not enough to be controlling, but then again, the UN is controlled by nobody, except perhaps the bureacrats like Kofi Annan and his "appointees".

If you don't want the US Navy patrolling the seas and preventing piracy from taking 50% of your sea borne transport, then you can pay for your own Navy of course. As you know, when the US Navy is not allowed in Chinese and Indonesian waters, Somali and Indonesian pirates have a great and bountiful harvest.

The problem is that (apart from being profoundly undemocratic for the reasons pointed out, because US foreign policy is obviously not accountable to the rest of the world's citizens), such a policy leads to sheer anarchy and total breakdown of world order.

The world order looks pretty good from the perspective of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Egypt, and North Korea. Iran after all violated international law by going onto the sovereign territory of the United States and taking our embassy staff hostage, and then doing nothing to ensure their release. The instability and anarchy you speak of, does not exist in this world, because the enemies of the United States who have committed crimes against the US, have rebuffed US interests and deals like Turkey, are still relatively unharmed. The US can and could destroy every nation's ability to trade simply by authorizing Full Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. So if you believe our land forces have put a stretch upon the power, and that this is the reason the US is restricted from toppling governments, then I have to say you're not seeing the full picture. We can argue about whether the ground grunts of the US are stretched, but obviously the US Navy and carriers and air force are not stretched, so if the US is creatign such anarchy and destruction as you envision, then we have to ask why there is no such destruction from UScarriers and submarines.

it leads to a state of affairs in which every nation can take it upon itself to act unilaterally (just like you advocate the US as doing)

Again, if they want the capacity to project power and be able to tell people what to do, then they are welcome to spend 500 billion on defense like the US does. You get what you pay for after all. Americans are tired of subsidizing the world's defense, so yes we'd prefer someone else spend their blood and treasure (like China) ensuring peace and stability in the world, free of economic and military corruption.

The US finds it far more advantageous to deal with people and nations honestly, rather than telling them what to do. It takes too much resources to Empire build, we'd rather spend those resources on a mobile army rather than occupationary stationary garrison force.

So, there's going to be nothing to stop, say, India from unilaterally bombing Pakistan (which it may see as a legitimate security threat) or for Pakistan to do the same to India.

So why didn't they exchange nukes because of Kashmir? Did the UN stop them? Did the US? So what made them stop, if what you say is true that nothing is stopping them from launching bombs and nukes?

Pursued to its logical end, such a state of affairs also sets off uncontrolled arms races throughout the planet.

Like I said, anyone can spend money on defense, but they won't and they aren't. So your theory of a world wide arms race, doesn't cut it. France could be spending mroe on defense to match the US, since they wanted a EU balancing force to the US and NATO, but they aren't. So your theory isn't accurate even in predicting current events.

The alternative is too terrible to contemplate.

In conclusion, the alternative I see is the world as it is currently. Now it could be better, but it is not the pre-apocalypse state of affairs that you described, however.

 
At 4:11 PM, June 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Please re-read carefully what I had written in my original post. I had written (notice the italicized part):

So cut out the portion that had the dictators. The main gist of the sentence was whether you believed that the humans in the UN would look out for the interests of the citizens of the member nations, without the check and balances in the US system.

The mention of many of the member nations in the UN being dictators is to further prove the point that the UN does not look out for the interests of the citizens of member nations, it was not an indication that you believed the UN was only full of democratic nations. The reverse logic, if you include what I said, is that even if we assume for the sake of argument that Indians are represented by the UN, the same cannot be said for dictatorship countries.

This is a layered argument, which takes one argument at one level, then makes another argument on another. It is about the same subject, but rather than staying on one logic track, it branches out to other possibilities.

Bureaucrats do not set policies.

The UN bureacrats did not set the policy of which nations were able to deal with Saddam under the Oil for Food program, which companies had the right to make deals with an internationally sanctioned regime? It is quite apparent given the evidence, logic, and reasoning that bureacrats do set the application of policies. Unless you are suggesting of course that the representatives of France and Russia worked to set policies that would enable them to exploit Saddam and the Iraqis for their own gain, in return for being exploited by Saddam.

Those who control the details of a plan, control that plan. It matters not who set the policy into existence in the beginning, if that policy is used against the spirit of the founders. This is a false argument about metaphysics. By quoting the causality chain of who set the policy first, you are not making one dint on whether bureacrats unlawfully corrupt the spirit and purpose of those policies.

Again, India has 1.1 billion people, and yet they do not have a veto on whether someone becomes the UN Secretary-General or not. You remark on the representation India gets at the UN, but the obvious differences in representation by population belays that claim. When you talk about a vote, I do remind you that the basis of liberal democracies is one man, one vote, one time. India canvote how many times they want for a leader, but the nations with vetos can override them all the time, therefore their vote does not matter. We're not talking about the future, btw, so any reforms you seek to implace is not relevant to whether Indians and other nation-peoples get representation NOW or Before.

Nevertheless, as I said before, the UN is a good start.

A undemocratic start is not a good start. The American Revolution which acquired independence but did not remove slavery, that was a good start cause obviously we look at the current events and we understand that it was a success. The UN which disenfranchises the billion or so people in India and other countries like Japan, which pay the UN proportionally most of their funding, is not a good start. Why? Simply because, not only does the UN tax nations like Germany and Japan (the more wealthier nations) without representation, but they don't represent the great majority of the people in this world. Any redeem values people remark about the UN are figments of their imagination, hopes and desires that might exist sometime in the future, but in the current affairs what we have is things like Peacekeeping for Sex in the Congo, Blood for Oil in Iraq, and various other boondogles that instead of being investigated, are actually being covered up and ignored, delayed and rope a doped. Things are a good start when people have reasonable justifications that it will end well, or if they have confirmation through history that it did end well. Some starts were bad, and then ended up being successful like Washington's entire life perhaps, but that is not quite relevant to "good starts" as you mean it.

Too much idealism is not useful, and therefore not a good start.

What I said was that, compared to a scenario in which the USA effectively functions as a world government

But the US doesn't function as a world government even today. It can only be described as an enforcement agency that enforces specific standards upon as many people as it can reach and influence. A government requires taxation, the US taxes nobody. In point of fact, our military protection is extended to many nations via "status of forces acts" with no revenue being returned, in Germany for example our bases are actually revitalizing the local economy there. I have never heard of a government that provided benefits to citizens and paying them a reward, without that government deriving taxes from those citizens. Well, I actually I have, and it is called socialized welfare. So if you mean the US is the socialized welfare nanny of the world, then yes it is. BUt if you mean world gov as in "collects taxes and administers laws", then no.

The UN you refer to as representative is in the future, right now it is not representing anyone except the interests of the power lobbyists and the bureacrats. The US you refer to as a world government, is no such world government in today's world.

It's time to start talking about what exists today, rather than the ideas of the future.

Why? Because an Indian citizen has at least some say in policy decisions at UN (through the representative sent to the General Assembly by the Indian government which the Indian citizen democratically elected) whereas the Indian citizen has absolutely no say in policy decisions made by the US government.

Again, I repeat the argument I made before that nullies this claim of yours. Indians elect their government, and their government makes 1 to 1 individual deals with the USA. This allows the recognition of India, by America, of their economic potential and population. Which the UN does not do at this moment. Your argument that an Indian citizen at the lowest base, has more say in the policy decisions of the UN, then the policy decisions of US-Indian relations, deals, and economic evaluations is not true. If the Indian government goes into a deal with the US, it will be honored. It will not be vetoed by some guy the Indians did not elect. If the USA agrees and India agrees, then it exists. However, if India agrees with everyone in the UN except a veto holder, then India gets nothing regardless of what they vote for. I am not refering to a perfect, nominal, ideal, futuristic UN. I am talking about the UN as it exists at this moment, which is relevant to the context of this discussion as much as the current existence of the US system at this moment in time, is.

As I said, you're making the "might is right" argument here.


Again, you're free to replace the might is right argument with another version to your liking, but that is how it exists right now, at this time, in this state of reality. If you have another state of reality you'd like to push, go ahead. There is nothing inherently wrong with might is right, because no nation has been right without also being victorious. No nation, no person, nobody in the HISTORY of the human race has failed and then said "oh, I got it right so who cares". Getting it right and failing is not mutually inclusive. It is not might that matters, it is victory, might simply facilitates victory. So in essence, victory makes right, to the victor goes the spoils.

If you want to deny and characterize the world we have \ today as some other type of system, a utopia perhaps, you're free to do so. But you should refrain from advocating your arguments ad nauseam because they don't become more efficacious as timely repetitions go on.

By the same logic, then, in the USA, the wealthy (who pay a higher share of the total taxes collected by the government) should have veto power over legislation in the US Congress and the US Senate?

Again,my argument is not to argue whether the USA should or should not have a veto. My argument is that if you seek to replace the system as it exists today, you need to shell out some serious money. This is true of the US as well, if the Democrats want to win and change the way things are done, they will have to committ a SERIOUS amount of money to defense and other things. You miss the point if you try to transplant the UN veto to the American system. Like I stated, the US system has check and balances the UN does not have, obviously it would be stupid to transplant the UN's faulty and bug ridden system to one that actually works, in the USA.

So no, it is not by my logic, but rather by yours in the context of transplanting the UN's faulty veto system to the US. The President has a veto, because all citizens elect him through direct population and proportional representation. This has little or nothing to do with the UN.

Thanks for making your viewpoint about democracy quite clear.

Thanks for making a straw man out of my arguments, but you should stop doing that if you wish to continue to use logic. You do understand what logic is, correct, and what a straw man is? Just to clarify, but a straw man is something you create by using your logic, and call it as having originated from my argument, then having dashed this straw man creation of yours, you then state that you now claim victory over my argument. But in the end, my argument still stands, regardless of the illusionary sleight of handle performed.

 
At 4:14 PM, June 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I prefer to avoid the NK Iran question, since that is too much to tackle along with the other subjects.

However I will say that the problems arise because of inconsistency. If Bush stopped using multilateral strategies in NK, then this would solve the problem of NK, perhaps permanently. This would also remove the pretext Iran has for pursuing nuclear weapons, because NK would have been the example that having nukes don't mean you are protected from the US.

The mixture of unilateral and multilateral actions, best depicted by Iraq, is a harmful hybrid titration that is not a good idea to pursue.

The detriments of the multilateral strategy with NK producing an arms race in Iran, is not I say again it is not an indication that the unilateral or enforcement policies of the USA is in itself flawed.

 
At 4:19 PM, June 19, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

Oh ya, for the sake of convenience and thread shortening, I copied my reply to my blog.

Link goes direct to comments

So you can use this link to post a comment there.

 
At 10:20 AM, June 20, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

and basing itself on Palestinian hospital documentation, claims that the explosion actually took place right around the time of the IDF artillery fire."

For someone that says Iraq the Model is a CIA propaganda project and therefore he does not believe it, you don't seem to recognize the actual potentials and capabilities of Palestinian propaganda, Charles.

It is rather easy, and Hamas has done this before, to bribe doctors and secretaries to forge documentation to corroborate the Story Arc, especially if this is planned ahead of time. And I believe it is.

Hamas knows HRW down to its tail bones, and it also knows the Palestinian doctors, nurses, and whomevers.

While HRW investigates the check and balances of Israel's investigation, HRW and you are quite obviously ignoring the lack of check and balances in Palestinian hospitals and how prone they are to factual manipulation and mis-data representation.

Iraq saw this in fallujah as well, where hospitals in Fallujah started reporting civilian casualties, which did not exist in reality. Or if it did, the terroists were shooting people and threatening the doctors to say that it was by Americans, or the doctors would disappear.

Palestinian Princess, who lives in Palestine, supports my arguments, specifically about how Hamas are a bunch of goons, mafia types, and we all know the mafia loves threatening people to do what they wantvia extortion.

 
At 8:56 AM, June 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...

I'll rephrase that then. You believe it is a propaganda project, even if you hedged your bets in saying whether it was or was not.

The reasoning is thus. While there are 3 different paths to disbelief, belief, and refusal to believe until more information is forthcoming, you don't subscribe to any one of them concerning what you said about Iraq the Model.

You obviously don't believe it, and you use the propaganda line as a reason to disbelieve it. Yet your further comments show that you also believe that you can't determine whether it is propaganda or not, because it is 'unverifiable'. You might have used a different wording however, but the meaning would be the same.

So, if you don't believe it, and you don't disbelieve it, and you aren't waiting for more information since you admit you expect no more information, then the only reason why you would bring up the propaganda point is to discount the credibility of Iraq the Model as a justification for why I'm right, and you're wrong.

Thus, while you don't obviously subscribe to the belief, disbelief, or witholding of belief concerning whether Iraq the Model is a propaganda project, your actions lean heavily towards the disbelief line.

So when I say that you said Iraq the Model is a propaganda project, I didn't mean it in the literal sense.

I specifically said that one has no way of knowing if Iraqi blogs critical of the occupation, purported to be written by ordinary Iraqis, are being put up by the insurgents.

That was one of the reasons why I said you disbelieved it, because you said there is no way to know. If there is no way to know, then obviously you don't subscribe to the trilinear options of intellectual honesty. So I choose the most likely and consistent course of behavior and belief.

I believe Iraq the Model is the real deal and I've already considered that it is a CIA/Bush propaganda project. As I've said, the justifications were lacking in quantity as well as quality for this line of argument.

In the end, saying it is "possible" that Iraq the Model is a propaganda project without being able to prove it or even believe that it is provable, is a useless justification for why you were right about Iraqi opinions and why I was wrong to quote an Iraqi opinion.

As for the Hamas propaganda, I've already detailed the reasons and justifications for why Hamas is conducting a propaganda project with the beach incident. If you don't have any way to know one way or the other, that doesn't mean I'm stuck in the same rut.

If you want to straddle the fence, Charles, go ahead. But you might as well call for Hamas legitimizing their own investigations as calling for Israel to conduct a "more legitimate" trial ny judge.

 
At 8:59 AM, June 21, 2006, Blogger Ymarsakar said...


Thus, while you don't obviously subscribe to the belief, disbelief, or witholding of belief concerning whether Iraq the Model is a propaganda project, your actions lean heavily towards the disbelief line.


Correction time, it'd be "the belief line". Got switched around.

 

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